Pioneer shows off 16-layer 400GB Blu-ray Disc, affirms compatibility with current players

by Darren Murph, posted Dec 2nd 2008 at 7:35AM

When Pioneer first introduced its unicorn-like 16-layer 400GB Blu-ray Disc, we weren't sure if the thing would make it beyond the drawing board, let alone be compatible with existing BD decks. Over at the IT Month Fair in Taipei, Pioneer showed up to showcase the capacious disc, and better still, a DigiTimes report asserts that these are indeed compatible with Blu-ray readers already on the market. Currently, the 400GB disc is slated to hit mass production sometime between now and 2010, while rewritable versions won't hit until 2010 to 2012. Not like it really matters though -- a 1TB disc is on track for 2013, and you know you'll be waiting for the latest and greatest.

Filed under: Blu-ray, Pioneer

Tags: 16-layer, 400gb, BD, blu-ray, blu-ray disc, Blu-rayDisc, optical disc, optical media, optical storage, OpticalDisc, OpticalMedia, OpticalStorage, Pioneer, PUH

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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)

Neutral

GhostDoggy @ Dec 2nd 2008 8:08AM

Can get all of the Star Wars movies or all of the Star Trek movies on one disk?

Neutral

The Aggie CEO @ Dec 2nd 2008 5:30PM

that would be SWEET!!!

Neutral

Steve_Hun @ Dec 2nd 2008 8:27AM

And whole seasons of TV shows, or even whole TV shows can be put to one disc!

Highly Ranked

Gus @ Dec 3rd 2008 1:06AM

Really good if you scratch that 1 disc with a complete set on it, and imagine the cost!!
50 GB or there about's is big enough IMO.

Highest Ranked

okeygrak @ Dec 2nd 2008 9:24AM

You guys are missing the point. If you put entire seasons, or movie trilogies on one disc, then obviously it is less of a value to the consumer. We all know that it's not the content we are paying for, but the amount of cheap plastic discs that are inside. Besides, it would deny consumers the love they share for swapping through discs in multi-disc special editions, and those beautiful "multi-disc ultra uber special edition unrated (with one extra minute of material, not reviewed by the MPAA ) edition" stickers on the extraneous extra cardboard cover placed over the plastic case. (To add value of course ).

-rant over

Neutral

squiggleslash @ Dec 2nd 2008 9:30AM

Ok, to pre-empt the obvious "OMG! All of Star Trek on one disc!!" comments:

For pressed discs, which is what "All of Star Trek on one disc" would be, this is a less than desirable technology.

Yields from multilayer discs make them less desirable the more layers they have. For the most part, the reason most DVDs are dual layer is necessity, not preference, and the more layers you add, the more costly it becomes exponentially. (If any layer fails, you have to throw out the whole disc, despite the successful pressing of the other layers.)

If this type of technology was useful, then Hollywood would be knocking on HD-VMD's door, and the DVD Forum would have just added layers to DVD instead of going to blue lasers for HD DVD. We'd have had sub-$100 HD players since 2005.

Now, for RECORDABLE discs, this is a very, very, useful technology. Given the one-off nature of recordable images, the occasional write error is not so much of an issue as long as the error is detected in time and the data is written to another part of the disc.

But pressed discs? I just don't see this taking off.

Neutral

img eL @ Dec 2nd 2008 9:58AM

There has been alot of R&D & currently. I'm sure there has been failed layers, with more R&D that could be iron out. I'm just hoping for 4k,6k,8k films on blu ray. New layer technologhy could come out that holds more infomation per layer.

Highest Ranked

WebDev511 @ Dec 2nd 2008 10:56AM

Well no one is going to blame them for aiming low. I'd like to see studios put more effort into using the full capacity of a BD50 before they start plans on how to use a BD400.

Seeing that there is supposedly still a very high failure rate for dual layer discs, I have a hard time believing that this is going to be viable at a price most people would be willing to pay.

Neutral

3dpenguin @ Dec 2nd 2008 11:05AM

Anybody know the reason why these won't take off? If you want to just take a look at DVD-R/RW. With each aditional layer price dramaticly increases while reliability decreases, you might take notice that there aren't tons of D/L DVD-R/RW out there and that is the reasony why. Now Blu-ray is talking about a disc that is going to be more costly than a portable hard drive of the same capacity and the hard drive is more reliable and universably usable. For movie use, I wouldn't even expect these discs to be seen by the 2010 launch data or even 2012, as pointed out the current 50GB discs aren't even being used to their fullest potential, and the D/L BD-R discs are few and far between because the price is outragouse in compairson to the already outragiously priced BD-R (25GB).

Neutral

Jesse @ Dec 2nd 2008 11:11AM

Sorry to be a spelling nazi, but I just read 6 lines that should have been seperated some. It's OUTRAGEOUS that you can't spell such a simple word.

Highest Ranked

Pete @ Dec 2nd 2008 1:20PM

Hey pal, it's separated, not seperated

Neutral

JermTool @ Dec 2nd 2008 5:19PM

lol

Neutral

Danny @ Dec 6th 2008 3:41PM

Nothing touches my heart more than when a grammar nazi spells something wrong.

Neutral

Dave @ Dec 2nd 2008 11:39AM

Awesome!

Neutral

Xyzzy @ Dec 2nd 2008 12:18PM

I'm going to get flamed for this, but oh well.

Why is it when Toshiba announced a 3-layer HD DVD and claimed that it worked with existing hardware, fanboys called them liars. When BD makes an even more outrageous claim (16 layers? Really?), it's considered cool? :D

Neutral

img eL @ Dec 2nd 2008 12:45PM

It would be cool if any company releases 4k,6k,8k films

Neutral

Spiza @ Dec 2nd 2008 12:59PM

I was under the impression Toshiba never did state it would be compatible.

Highly Ranked

squiggleslash @ Dec 2nd 2008 1:19PM

It was fairly believable that the 3 layer HD DVD system was backward compatible (well, with a firmware update to the drives themselves.)

HD DVD always supported up to three layers, but only two could be high-density (the original combo disc was supposed to be single sided, but difficulty pressing these discs meant most combo discs ended up being "one side HD, the other SD".) So the physical drives could focus on an area of the disc that had enough capacity for three layers.

The only question on whether a firmware update was all that was needed was that the third layer for the new 3 layer HD DVD discs was encoded slightly differently to the other two, so that the discs would be 51G rather than 45G, as they'd have been using the same encoding as the regular HD DVD layers.

But certainly, the notion HD DVD drives could be updated to read the discs with a firmware update was believable.

I'm inclined to believe Pioneer when they say that these multilayer discs just need a firmware update. All current BD drives need to be able to focus on a slice of the disc that includes the DVD layers, which are relatively deep in a disc, and Blu-ray layers, which are relatively shallow. I'd imagine that you can fit a fair number of layers between those two areas, and I doubt BD drives use lenses that somehow are incapable of focussing on the area inbetween.

Neutral

Pete @ Dec 2nd 2008 1:30PM

I remember quite a few HD DVD fanboys opining that the capacity was irrelevant so when Toshiba made the announcement it had matched Blu-ray's dual-layer capacity it seemed a bizarre claim to a "win" for the HD DVD camp.

At the time it was difficult to be much impressed by Toshiba merely matching its competitor. The overriding feeling was they had to do far better than just that to turn the tide.

Neutral

DrXym @ Dec 3rd 2008 4:42AM

I very much doubt Pioneer are making such claims. It's impossible to see how they could even now with so many models and certainly not for something claimed to be appearing in 2-3 years. If it's backwards compatible in some way, it will be a couple of compatibility layers with the rest being unreadable to existing players. At most it will be a hybrid, at worst it will be unreadable.

What the purpose of the disk is is also unclear. I expect its most likely for data storage and other vertical systems where large amounts of data need to be distributed or archived (e.g. digital cinema, professional CAD/CAM, genetics, movie production etc.). But I suppose it might also have consumer uses if 1440p sets or 3D took off. It absolutely would need a new player though.

The situation with HD DVD was different. The proposed triple layer disks were supposed to address the difference in the amount of storage the format offered vs its rival. If the triple layer format wasn't backwards compatible with existing players, it would either have meant a lot of pissed off owners and possibly no movie would never touch it. Even though HD DVD was far more proprietary than Blu Ray, there were still drives coming from NEC, Toshiba / Samsung (via joint venture) and LG. It was an unanswered question as to whether all gen 1, 2 and 3 players, plus hybrid and PC drives could be modified in firmware. Toshiba wasn't forthcoming and the format died before it became an issue.

Neutral

squiggleslash @ Dec 5th 2008 11:25AM

DrXym:

> Even though HD DVD was far more proprietary than Blu Ray

This completely bizarre statement makes it very hard to take a thing you say seriously.

Honestly, it's stupid. HD DVD may have been discontinued, but that doesn't mean all statements that put it in a negative light and BD in a positive light can be made without people thinking you're an imbecile.

HD DVD was an open standard created by the DVD Forum using consensus decisions and technologies developed by industry groups. Blu-ray made a few sops to open standards, but the over-all format was controlled by a clique which routinely ignored consensus decisions (such as the decision by the majority of the BDA to support Advanced Content, which was overridden by Sony) and which, unlike HD DVD, includes 100% single-vendor proprietary technologies like Macrovision's BD+.

HD DVD was considerably less proprietary than Blu-ray. Unfortunately, being open counted against it as it meant the technology would never adopt proprietary inanities like BD+, putting off studios like Fox.

As usual, the better format failed.

Neutral

DrXym @ Dec 8th 2008 5:12AM

Sorry Squiggleslash, HD DVD was the more proprietary format. Blu Ray was supported by a large industry supported consortium. HD DVD was just Toshiba & Microsoft with a few neutrals supporting both formats. By definition it was more proprietary. The industry overwhelmingly wanted Blu Ray and ultimately it got it.

It's also laughable you claim HD DVD was "better". In most respects it was either equal or slightly superior or slightly inferior. In the ways it was superior were generally minor and addressed by profile 1.1 or 2.0. In a backwards compatible fashion. It was inferior in ways that could not be addressed later such as lower bitrates, lower storage capacity and inferior copy protection. Even so-called advantages that you prattle on about from time to time such as managed copy were NEVER IMPLEMENTED. No player supported managed copy, not even on PC players. If I shove in an HD DVD into my PC, I cannot create a bit for bit managed copy of the movie, let alone a scaled version suitable for portable players. Perhaps the infrastructure was in place right? Nope. If I hit the AACS key server url specified in the disk's mngcopy.manifest.xml such as Universal's http://smc.universalhomentertainment.com nothing happens. Nothing happens because no studio bothered to implement managed copy. So much for that.

Even more laughable that you claim that advanced content was open. It was a Microsoft proprietary technology which they were attempting to pollute Blu Ray with like they managed with VC-1. Advanced copy has some advantages over BDMV and BD-J and sits somewhere between, but it adds nothing that a decent authoring tool couldn't do with BD-J anyway. BD-J is an implementation of GEM which is industry standard multimedia profile for Java. It's found in a variety of set top boxes including most recently tru2way. It's no wonder Microsoft hated it since they didn't invent it. As it happens, there is nothing to prevent something like Advanced Content running as middleware for BD-J - either a tool that parses XML & JS spits out equivalent BD-J classes, or a runtime that parses and runs the XML & JS in Java. It would be quite feasible and I'm sure some BD authoring environments offer something similar.

Neutral

squiggleslash @ Dec 20th 2008 7:46PM

Sorry DrXym, but the word "proprietary" doesn't mean what you think it does. Using your logic, the Ogg Vorbis standard is more proprietary than Windows Media.

Given everything else you've said follows from your "A standard is more proprietary if only fewer companies implement it" definition, I don't really need to address any more of your points. The fact is HD DVD was put together by an open consortium of manufacturers, software producers, and studios. No one entity wielded control of the standard.

By comparison, Blu-ray has always been strictly controlled by Sony. Sony has even vetoed technologies being put in against the wishes of the members of the BDA, the supposed "front group" that was supposed to make Blu-ray open, such as Advanced Content, which was supported by an overwhelming majority of BDA members when it was put to a vote.

It's that simple. HD DVD was open. Blu-ray was, and is, closed. It makes use of one or two existing open technologies, but it's not an open standard in and of itself. If the majority of the members of the DVD Forum wanted HD DVD to have Java, their wishes would be respected.

However you argue it, you cannot deny that BDA members do not have the same control of Blu-ray. Well, you can, but you'll look like an idiot by doing so.

Neutral

Kingpcgeek @ Dec 2nd 2008 12:21PM

Don't they normally show hot Asian chicks in their promo photo?

Neutral

shawnmos @ Dec 2nd 2008 4:28PM

I think she's kinda cute.

Neutral

unicode787plus @ Dec 2nd 2008 11:56PM

That chick above looks WAY A LOT like Ai Otsuka, that pesky Japanese singing ferret on Helium-3...

Neutral

Jeff Carbello @ Dec 2nd 2008 1:12PM

>>Yields from multilayer discs make them less desirable the more layers they have.

I think the yields will improve as the technology matures and higher production demand ramps up and once BD players reach that magic $199 which looks like it will happen this X-mass.

Research has shown that TV set DVD sales are down and the biggest complaint from consumers was the lack of space. Yes, I think early on that consumers perceived more value from the bigger boxes and more discs. But that is changing as the market matures. Also in this "green" age, its also a good "green" PR for the studios. So if studios are smart they will start releasing MPEG-2 SD only TV show seasons on single disc Blu-ray's. And with production and packaging costs cut down they can also offer a better priced version which is also important in todays economic climate.

Neutral

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