Make no mistake -- the
digital downloads versus physical media debate has been
raging quietly for years now, but for whatever reason,
lighter fluid found the smoldering fire just this week. Granted, the
HD Netflix streaming for the Xbox 360 announcement probably helped things along, but we digress. We already
gave you our take on the whole
ordeal, and overall, we just think streams have too many strings attached to truly eradicate optical discs. Time restrictions (both watch and wait times), overly heavy DRM limitations, possible quality issues, thin catalogs, etc. all detract from the allure that instantly gratifying digital downloads have at first glance. But who knows, maybe you're willing to overlook all of that. Drop your vote in the poll below and sound off in comments. It's Decision 2008, folks -- make it count!
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
SeannyD @ Nov 1st 2008 12:12PM
I don't know why people get so heated about this debate. It will happen when it will happen. I just think of the downloading being too far off for me to put off purchasing Blu Ray discs. I mean, if I replace my 300 DVDs with Blu Rays, and let's say they are all 50 GB discs, that's 15,000 GB or 15 terabytes. Is a 15 TB drive going to be affordable in the next 5-7 years? Maybe, but I don't know why I should put off purchasing stuff until then.
Granted, I understand that downloads are normally much smaller than a full-on disc, but still. It's very difficult to understand WHY people want one or the other to fail. I agree that downloads ARE the future, but I don't see why that has to undermine physical media. It just seems that some people need to pick sides, regardless of the conflict instead of seeing what can work together.
So, give me a little of both. I'm going to keep buying and renting Blu Ray discs, but if I see something on Xbox Live that is worth renting or downloading, I'm going to take advantage of it. Not to mention the excitement over HD streaming with Netflix.
Frankly, look at the wealth of possibilities that exist regarding the future of content. Twenty years ago, it was nothing but VHS. Now, the possibilities are endless. We should just enjoy that.
Bozster @ Nov 1st 2008 4:24PM
And you are correct for the most part..but once the mainstream takes over with downloads we will see optical media die out just from the reason of economics. It's very simple. Just like with LaserDisc. If an optical format doesn't reach mass appeal it becomes a financial burden on the companies releasing content and slowly but surely they die off - get discontinued. The proof is your VHS note. If it was true what you said, VHS would still be around but at some point it became financially unreasonable to continue pushing the format.
15tb drives might not be too far away.. We are talking next 5 years of advancement in compression technologies, optimization of HD content to maintain the same quality but lowering size. That's why VC-1 and AVC codecs are so good, they are allowing more and more that compression is simply transparent (quality wise) but the size goes down drastically.
Look at it this way, storage space grows incredibly fast on hard drives over time. We have proof of that as we've jumped from 250gb discs to 1.5tb in like 2 years. That's 6-7 times increase in size. On the other hand compression technologies are allowing to get master quality while reducing the size. So reality is that you really won't need 15tb to store you movies.
But overall I think you are looking at it wrong in a way. I don't think people will actaully store movies to begin with. I think that all you can eat rental models like Netflix or super high quality models like Vudu or Xbox 360 or PS3 will allow users to have virtual libraries of movies at their finger tips at any time. There won't be really a reason for anyone to buy a movie and I can tell you from the business model of things that companies would like to harvest monthly subscriptions then get a few bucks from individual sales. Monthly subscriptions are more stable revenue stream. Everybody wins in that scenario. Studios are protected as they don't really have to worry about DRM that much (it's all server side), companies offering download service will make money but studios will also take percentage and user gets virtual libraries at their finger tips for a monthly subscription for example.
Don't you agree that is much better way then paying $20-$30 per disc that you will essentially watch maybe a few times in it's lifetime?
Another reason why digital downloads seems more flexible is expansion. Everything is transparent to the consumer without the need to repurchase new devices or discs in the future if newer, higher quality movies come out. As I mentioned before, imagine 4k movies start coming out. With optical media you would have to rebuy your discs again (probably at a premium), you would have to buy a new player since your current optics won't support it and then wait for rental stores (who btw are dying and are getting severely undercut by studios with rentals because studios want to sell movies) to get those movies if you want to rent. That's hundreds and thousands of dollars wasted because you like to hold a disc in your hand. It's impractical, costly and overall the whole method and business model around optical media is ancient and highly stale.
In digital downloads, when even more and more services start competing you will see Cable companies expanding bandwidth capabilities because there's huge money in it. There's also a lot of competition space in digital downloads because if you look at rentals and since DRM is server side, movie studios could give licenses to anyone since it's safe for them and many download services could come out with better subscription and similar. It's really a very bright future.
Let me just leave you with this thought.
As of now, digital downloads capable households are several times bigger then Blu-Ray one. Just look at this:
1. PCs and HTPCs are digital downloads capable
2. Xbox 360 (25 million)
3. PS3 (16 million)
4. Roku and Vudu boxes (don't know numbers but it's definitely growing)
this probably 100+ million users against probaby 20 million with Blu-Ray and I'm very generous.
Put all these together and you will see that revenue and audience will soon exceed Blu-Ray several times.
The future is already here, we are just waiting for services to improve and that will most likely happen in the next 2-3 years to the point that you will see no difference between Blu-Ray and downloads. Vudu is already borderline with that with their HDX movies as many reputable Home Theater reviews say.
NorthCranky @ Nov 1st 2008 5:02PM
"2-3 years to the point that you will see no difference between Blu-Ray and downloads".
You may forget that physical media also advances and thus they may never have the same quality at the same time.
"As of now, digital downloads capable households are several times bigger then Blu-Ray one"
You may also forget that digital needs a fatter broadband connection to stream higher quality and one that's not capped. Many many people do not have one if not both and will not have that for years.
Digital is a good addition which will only get better but not a replacement. Its more like comparing tv service to blu-ray. I think digital will more likely eat away at cable,sat not blu-ray just as it is currently doing.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Nov 1st 2008 8:42PM
Don't forget that downloading does not require the fast connections that streaming demands.
With a tailored download of say 8.5gbs (enough for a very nice x264 1080p movie with one language audio track using full DTS @ 1.5mbps or Dolby Digital Plus @ 1.5mbps = much superior to vanilla Dolby Digital or the lower rated versions of DTS) any connection offering 6 -7mb will be done in about 3 - 4hrs.
Better net connections will do it even faster.
That's perfectly feasible for a hell of a lot of people right now.
Spiza @ Nov 1st 2008 12:14PM
I'm all for a system like netflix that is a monthly charge, but I'd still buy a few blu-ray discs.
aaron @ Nov 1st 2008 12:40PM
if netflix can get newer movies i can and will move to that as my primary method for watching movies and would only get a very select few in physical form.
gamedude420 @ Nov 1st 2008 12:49PM
if im renting, im for streaming/downloads
if im buying, then it must be disc only, no other real option for buying, because what happens if i wanna sell my movie ( for a lower cost, or for aprofit (think out of print releases, i once sold dawn of the dead for nearly $200 on amazon)
i think both can co exist. i just wish services like vudu and apple would be able to do something like netflix is doing instead of a per movie rental. unlimited rentals with newer movies would be awesome for renting.
minimalist @ Nov 1st 2008 3:02PM
Blu-ray, DVD, digital downloads all have their place but downloads still have way too many issues to completely eclipse physical media. I buy the releases that really matter to me on Blu-ray yet I still rent lots of stuff via Netflix. I will also rent the occasional Apple TV or Xbox movie. Since I don't pay for cable I rent a lot and buy a movie or so each month.
These digital services are great augmentations to the purchasing or renting discs but they are nowhere near ready to completely take their place. Not only are there no HD movies available yet for purchase but there are just too many nagging issues that must be worked out. All these current systems are walled gardens, have intrusive DRM and time limitations, and complex licensing deals mean that movies are there one day and gone the next. ATV, Xbox, Amazon, Vudu and Cable VOD are very much works in progress.
ATV and Xbox are nice indulgences but I'm not willing to use them more than once a month because the per rental charges quickly add up. Netflix still has the best deal for renting and physical purchases still give me the peace of mind that once I have bought something it is mine... not mine until company x turns off their DRM servers.
Happyhappyjoyjoy @ Nov 1st 2008 3:14PM
HD DVR & HD TV via satellite/cable makes watching HD movies & TV shows so convenient, cheap & easy
Bozster @ Nov 1st 2008 4:41PM
And what happens when 4k movies come out.. and this is not too far into the future as it was with SD to HD?
How much will your optical disc be worth then and what will you do when you want to get new movies? Buy them all over again?
Just seems impractical not to mention over the top costly.
I think your assumption come from the strong belief that new optical format will be here for another decade or more and that's where I think you are wrong.
I think that most people who are negative about digital downloads will come to see the fact how much money it really costs them using optical media and how much less it will cost them to just stop buying and go with the all you can it digital downloads model.
minimalist @ Nov 1st 2008 5:26PM
"And what happens when 4k movies come out.. and this is not too far into the future as it was with SD to HD? How much will your optical disc be worth then and what will you do when you want to get new movies? Buy them all over again?"
Since 42" in the most common HDTV size these days 1080 is about the maximum resolution anybody can realistically see with a TV that fits in a typical middle class home or apartment. I think its pretty safe to say that until the average consumer starts buying 200" TV's we are safe from the danger of 4K becoming any kind of home standard. Just because that is the resolution studios are scanning their old movies at for archival purposes does not mean they will be released that way.
"I think that most people who are negative about digital downloads will come to see the fact how much money it really costs them using optical media and how much less it will cost them to just stop buying and go with the all you can it digital downloads model."
First of all, where are these high quality all you can eat models that actually have significant content for a cheap price?
Secondly, I spend 50 dollars or so on a 4-at a time Netflix plan, about one blu-ray a month and the stray rental or two from Apple TV or Xbox. I don't have cable at all and I watch all the TV shows and movies I want that way with the bonus of having a physical copy of my favorite discs to watch again whenever I want. If there ever is a magical HD cloud where all movies and all TV's shows are immediate available 24/7/365 I can guarantee you it won't be offered for less than that. There is no way its economically feasible. It will be more expensive than a premium cable package with everything added.
gamedude420 @ Nov 1st 2008 12:51PM
i would be all for renting via apple and vudu say if they could get both services for $5-8 a month ( a little less than netflix since with netflix u also get a dvd rental)
i wouldnt mind having 1 or 2 of the services plus my blu ray purchases for movies that i want to keep
Bozster @ Nov 1st 2008 4:45PM
"i would be all for renting via apple and vudu say if they could get both services for $5-8 a month ( a little less than netflix since with netflix u also get a dvd rental)"
Smiles. It's fascinating to see that a lot of people finds $10-$20 a month for full catalog of HD movies as too much and want it cheaper but find $25-$30 optical media movies acceptable with prices? He he.
I think it's just disingenuous.
Tom @ Nov 1st 2008 1:07PM
I'll take both. That's why I like the LG BD300 Network Blu-Ray Player that plays both Blu-ray discs and streams from Netflix.
Lkr721993 @ Nov 1st 2008 1:29PM
Blu-ray, higher bitrates and better audio
Nate @ Nov 2nd 2008 9:05AM
It's all about the bitstream. Downloads won't touch the available 50mbits that blu can provide for years. Sure, you might find a 50mbit connection, but you're not going to get QoS on that.
And did anyone bother to point out that many large ISPs are metering? Good luck with those HD downloads.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Nov 2nd 2008 3:29PM
"Nate
It's all about the bitstream. Downloads won't touch the available 50mbits that blu can provide for years."
No, it isn't.
It's actually all about the quality of the source material, the efficiency of the compression codec(s) used and the skills of those doing the encoding.
Nate @ Nov 16th 2008 11:48AM
Multi - Here's the point: Assuming all other things are equal, it is all about the bitstream.
anonam @ Nov 1st 2008 1:30PM
When the quality of HD rentals is equal or better than Blu-ray (40mbit video AND uncompressed audio) and megaband internet is affordable so I can download them in less than a week THEN I'll think about digital downloads.
Til then, $15/mo Netflix rental Blu-rays mailed to my house in 1-2 days please.
nathan @ Nov 1st 2008 1:39PM
It's a false choice. It's like saying do you want to drink only beer or only wine in the future. Well, duh, why does one have to choose only one?
One day, if the selection and quality and price are right, I can see downloading replacing rentals. But that's some BIG "if"s and that's only part of the market.
Jeebus @ Nov 1st 2008 1:59PM
Did you miss the "I'll have a little of both, please." option?
Happyhappyjoyjoy @ Nov 1st 2008 2:08PM
It's not about one or the other, not to anyone reasonable.
Unfortunately Blu-ray attracts the very sort who act as if anything else is rubbish, thanks to the PS3.
Too many fail to understand compression and bitrates and cheer for spec numbers with no understanding of how they work in the real world or how little they mean to most.
The high definition world will be split & spread over more and more formats and outlets as time goes by, Blu-ray will just be a part of that - and probably only a minority part.
scyber @ Nov 1st 2008 2:51PM
Downloads for me, but only in the Monthly fee netflix model. I used to buy lots of DVDs, but then netflix came along and I haven't bought one since. I've been waiting for their HD streams.
I realize that the video and audio quality isn't as good as bluray. But I'm not a perfectionist/snob when it comes to video. Based on what I have seen, a 720p video at ~6mbps bitrate is good enough for me. And as for HD audio? Don't really care. My setup isn't even a proper 5.1 setup and my receiver can't support any of the new formats anyway. Perhaps eventually I may care about that stuff, but by that time there will probably be options for streaming bluray quality content anyway.
minimalist @ Nov 1st 2008 4:56PM
Two things:
1. Regular Netflix streams are far from DVD quality. Don't expect the HD streams to be equal to even a compressed 720p rental from Apple or Xbox. HD streams on Apple TV look OK but a download they are vastly inferior to HD downloads and even with a 12 Mbps connectiion they stop and start and buffer like crazy. The pecking order of quality puts Netflix and Hulu below SD downloads but just above Youtube. In other words these streaming services look so bad right now on a full size TV it would be hard to justify charging people very much for it. Which is why its more or less free right now and which brings me to my second point...
2. Don't expect the all you can eat Netflix model to remain as cheap as it is now. What you are currently seeing is just a little happy.. a value add sweeten the pot. And the selection is still fairly limited. Once all the studios come on board there is no way they (or Netflix) are going to let someone paying 10 bucks a month have unlimited access to all their content. At that point expect to pay at least what you would pay for a nice cable tier.
aaron @ Nov 1st 2008 5:08PM
1. Netflix will atleast equal appletv downloads.... we know the bitrate is 5 mbit which is slightly above what apple has encoded their downloads with. And almost EVERY (one reviewer complained becuase he didnt have the bw to stream hd properly but thats one compared to 10 glowing reviews) single early review has had nothing but positive to say about the HD quality.
2. I dont either.... in fact i hope they break it out on its own plan and let me subscribe to just the streaming if i want (for ~$15 monthly). and then add it as a $5 option on the dvd by mail plans. But if they do this Id expect new releases on it.
minimalist @ Nov 3rd 2008 12:05AM
" we know the bitrate is 5 mbit which is slightly above what apple has encoded their downloads with."
We do? Because I'm sitting here right now with a 10Mbps downstream cable connection watching Netflix on a 13 inch laptop and Apple TV quality it is not. The picture is block city with macroblocking and compression artifacts shifting all over the screen like a bad acid trip.
Apple TV SD rentals are below DVD quality and Netflix streaming looks to be well below that. About the only good thing I can say for it is its basically free (for now at least) and it doesn't look as bad as You Tube (which is not saying a whole lot). I am dying to see how this is going to look blown up on my 46" flat panel when it coms to Xbox this month. HD streaming might be higher res but my guess its going to be HD in name only. Like the SD signal, the HD signal will likely be crushed to death to make it stream without hiccups.
If this is the future of their business plan they have a long way to go before people are going to give up discs or this.
Dan Isaacs @ Nov 1st 2008 2:55PM
Downloads. If ever buy another disc in my life it will be to use in the Mini-van.
Stin @ Nov 1st 2008 2:55PM
Torrents ftw!
Mike @ Nov 1st 2008 5:18PM
I love me some physical media because it's great to be able to have (almost) absolute control over what you play and where you can play it. I love digital distribution because I can have it right now and not have to go to the movie store, which is great for impulse buying, but it's so riddled with complications and annoyances that I shy away from it. Let me buy what I want (good selection) and let me play it when I want (no time restrictions) and where I want (no DRM!), and you'll have a winner. I love being able to buy a movie on DVD, rip it to my HTPC/PS3 as a .divx file with surround sound and internal sub streams (to turn on and off as I feel like it), and if I so choose, bring over to my friends' houses like like physical media (most of them have PS3's so I can just put it on my thumb drive but I could burn the .divx file as a DVD too if I needed).
The entire purpose of digital distribution is that it's better than physical media because it's more convenient. But when you add on all these arbitrary and irritating DRM restrictions, that completely ruins the convenience of digital distribution! Get rid of the DRM and make it a mainstream format like DivX and this digital thing will spread like wildfire. I hope.
chiwax @ Nov 2nd 2008 5:44AM
So the lack of selection on Blu doesn't mean a thing to you? I browse the XBOX Live Marketplace now and then to see what they have added and can't believe how many movies are offered in HD. Sure it's not Blu quality but it still looks better than watching HBO on cable or even watching DVDs. I am still shocked at the lackluster catalog of Blu. The Godfather looks great on Blu and I can't wait to get "Dark Knight" on Blu but most people I talk to just aren't making the switch. These same people aren't going to rent or purchase(in the future) movies on an XBOX either so this whole arguement is just a distraction from the real story....on Engadget...go figure....Q
Sean @ Nov 1st 2008 8:29PM
Digital Downloads + Ownership = Success. Rentals as downloads is a very convenient service, but ownership of files that contain high quality multi channel audio and 1080p picture that is indistinguishable.
Daimyo Nintendo @ Nov 2nd 2008 1:35PM
We all keep saying this again and again because we are intelligent enough to know what will fail what will work, what the next "phase" will be, and that electroncis companies will always try to fuck us by brining in another format. Bottom line..the future is digital HD downloading holographic storage and non volatile ROM. Regardless of what comes after HD visuals and audio, electronic downloads are the future BUT...they will be complimented with what ever the future of Non volatile ROM will be and the HVC Holographic Versatile card. I love my blu-ray discs but I would hate to make the jump in 20 years to another spinning optical disc in the form of Holographic Versatile Discs. Lets skip Holographic volatile discs and go straight to the Holographic Versatile Cards. I would love flash memory (ROM obviously) to be advanced enough to hold entire movies. We go buy a movie at Best Buy, same size as a blu-ray disc case, but inside it little 1 inch by 1 inch card. Yea its a waste of plastic but is you had a tiny case you would loose the card.
AzaMcWazza @ Nov 1st 2008 9:54PM
It's simple for me, physical media. The reason being - resale and DRM attaching me to a device. If I want to buy content I want it to be mine to resell, give away or loan.
Platform locking DRM is EVIIIIIIIIL.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Nov 1st 2008 10:19PM
If you're American then you ought to read the 'EULA' you are deemed to have agreed to when you 'bought' your movie disc.
Your notions of ownership are likely to be seriously out of step with present day reality.
Basically you don't really own the movie at all, unfortunately too few are aware of this, that's what you get when you have a Gov in the pocket of big business.
Hence the insanity of so much US copyright law infringement being a criminal matter rather than the civil matter it is in many other western countries.
AzaMcWazza @ Nov 1st 2008 10:43PM
Nope, not American. Where I come from I own what I buy. I can rip it to whatever device I want, give it away, resell it, or loan it as I see fit.
THizzle7XU @ Nov 2nd 2008 2:29AM
Yes, Multi, because no one resells their media ever due to that law no one cares about. In fact, I hear eBay is a ghost town.
I think I offed all my HDDVD stuff for nearly what I paid for it within two months of Toshiba pulling the plug. Dead format and I still was able to make cash off it.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Nov 2nd 2008 9:05AM
@ THizzle7XU
Just because they did not enforce the law with your instance (or any other for that matter) does not make what I said wrong.
In fact what I said is correct and is the basis for every vindictive (ab)use of American law used against filesharers etc.
Strictly speaking you do not 'own' the movies you have bought and they are not yours to do whatever you like with it.
That is the legal situation, whether you get dragged to court over it in every instance or not.
The US Gov sold the people out over this and are busy running around the globe trying to get everyone else to folow their craven & supine example.
Thankfully in Europe, at least, no-one is listening to those greed-driven bought loonies.
THizzle7XU @ Nov 2nd 2008 11:11AM
Still, nobody cares, so what you say is irrelevant. Besides, just accept the fact that more than one format can coexist. The video game industry has been doing it for years and that is a far smaller audience than movies. Constantly arguing against Blu-ray is ignorant. Why would be be down on any advancement or tweaking or technology? Be happy you have more than one choice for entertainment. And that's all it is: entertainment. Why do you get your panties in a bunch about it?
Multi-format-mayhem @ Nov 2nd 2008 2:43PM
@ THizzle7XU
Actually what I said was in response to AzaMcWazza's comment about " Platform locking DRM is EVIIIIIIIIL"
Blu-ray is just as "locked" and legally it stands as just as "evil" as any other current competing high def format .
The only people I see with their "panties in a bunch" about any of this stuff are the rather obvious & laughably blinkered element who cannot abide a word of criticism about their preferred format.
'Normal people' know that complaining about the short-comings is a perfectly normal and natural reaction to those short-comings.
What sort of idiot thinks Blu-ray (or any other format, for that matter) is beyond criticism?
h0mi @ Nov 1st 2008 10:31PM
I'm a fan of both but downloads have a lot of hurdles... primarily there is no single standard for download distribution and netflix is an exception- netflix managed to get its service accessible on multiple hardware platforms while every other service requires single tasking set top boxes that work just with that service/platform and nothing else. In the event that netflix stops streaming videos in the future, only Roku box owners will be stuck with doorstops; everyone else will still be able to use their bluray player, xbox 360 or tivo for other purposes.
Also, most services are rental based... there's little ownership possible.
reallynotnick @ Nov 2nd 2008 11:13AM
I really do like the idea of streaming content over the internet all on demand but there are a few things that are limiting it right now.
1. Internet speed, I have 5mb/s internet and that's VERY fast for where I live, most people have 1.5mb/s here. Of course larger cities are better, but for people in the middle of nowhere they are not going to be streaming HD anytime soon. A way to fix this would be to have an Apple like podcast subscription where when new episode of your favorite show comes out it would just automatically download it and store it on the machine, and movies you should be able to cache on your drive instead of streaming them.
2. Standards, with BD it is BD you don't really have to worry about compatibility (ok... well there are software updates, bleh) but there is Hulu, Netflix, Vudu, Apple TV, XBLM ect ect. We need to have all content on one provider.
3. The idea of ownership, as with all these different companies above a few of them also sell movies, which is just a can of worms if you ask me. If company X decides to go out of business what happens to all the videos you 'own'.
4. Hardware, for every different service there seems to be another freaking piece of hardware to go with it. People just want one piece of hardware they can connect to their TV and watch all the movies and shows from all the different studios and it just works.
5. Prices, Netflix and Hulu are the only ones who have gotten this right, I am not PPV is not bad but when it costs more to rent it online then in the store, there is something wrong. Ideally though it would be just an all you can eat subscription that you could replace your cable/satellite with.
As of right now, I think BD is the best choice but I don't have a doubt that digital downloads can easily surpass BD in a few years. Everything just needs to be hammered out.
wrique @ Nov 4th 2008 7:29PM
Here's another reason for optical media - gifts. They are cheap, people like them (more than likely they won't re-gift them) and they are everywhere. Just look at the checkout counter at any major retailer - an impulse buy. When my family isn't sure what to get me and they don't want to spend a lot, a DVD or BD always works. They just look up my wish list on amazon and click away. Problem solved.
Mark @ Nov 2nd 2008 6:12PM
For rentals. I use netflix for BR movies, Hulu for tv shows but when I decide to purchase BR has become my top choice. As it stands, I do not like the DRM restrictions for owning downloadable media and the quality is not up to par with my disc based option.
LonnieDvD @ Nov 4th 2008 8:39PM
I would have to get a MUCH better internet connection for digital downloads. Besides, I don't trust hard drives enough to store movies on them. They all fail at some point.