Ask Engadget HD: What's the best plasma to pick up?
"I've got my heart set on getting a new plasma on Black Friday or as the holiday sales get going, but I'm running into too many options that I think will work. Obviously, I want deep blacks and the ability to hang it on my wall, but I'm trying to keep the cost down. Are these Vizio PDPs even worth looking at? Is the KURO really the end-all answer? Help!"
Surely more than a few of you out there have plasmas -- KURO or otherwise -- and are willing to throw this guy a bone. No size was mentioned, but we're guessing he's looking in the 42- to 50-inch range. Have at it in comments below!
Got a burning question that you'd love to toss out for Engadget HD (or its readers) to take a look at? Tired of Google's blank stares when you ask for real-world experiences? Hit us up at ask at engadgethd dawt com and keep an eye on this space -- your inquiry could be next.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Jason Sander @ Oct 15th 2008 12:07PM
If you can afford it, get the Pioneer KURO. You will not regret it.
Joseph @ Oct 15th 2008 12:24PM
If you can't afford it, get a Vizio. You will regret it.
Damian @ Oct 15th 2008 12:27PM
Panasonic, and use the $2k+ you save by not getting a Pioneer to buy something else.
DEEZNUTZ @ Oct 15th 2008 12:27PM
For the price, you can't beat a Panny's PQ. If you got the coin though, get the KURO.
WB @ Oct 15th 2008 12:27PM
I agree with the fact that Pioneer is the best available plasma out there, however some people can see this as a little pricey. If your looking for a good deal with great picture quality then you have to take a look at the Panasonic Plasma panels. These are typically great panels with good black levels amazing color accuracy and are reasonably priced. While sitting down with our pioneer rep early last week he admitted that Panasonic was a very formidable opponent to them in the plasma industry. This is part of the reason that Pioneer will be teaming up with panasonic in the future to creat the glass end of the panels. I hope i have helped you out!
Charles @ Oct 15th 2008 12:29PM
Is he asking about the best VALUE or best PICTURE QUALITY? You can't have both.
Attaturk @ Oct 15th 2008 12:31PM
Pioneer is no doubt peerless and priced that way.
Panasonics are generally considered to be the next best, but the current name brand models from Samsung and LG are also very good. The new Hitachi's are also excellent (the old versions black levels were LCD like). Any of those are more reliable than Vizio generally. Not that the new Vizio's are bad, I'd just take any of the name brands first. I'm going to be looking for a second model myself over the holidays. If a Pioneer 50 inch 1080p is close to 2 grand grab it, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd bet at least one of the other brands will be damn near a $1,000 and it will be very, very tempting.
Though Vizio is miles above any Best Buy house brand like Insignia or Dynex.
Jim @ Oct 15th 2008 12:33PM
I'd skip the Vizio's and go for an entry-level Samsung or Panasonic. The PQ is hands down much better than a similar sized/priced LCD. Deep blacks, great colors and excellent viewing angles. I have a 42" 720p Samsung plasma and am very happy with it, I was comparing it to a 720p Panasonic. I liked the Samsung better (look, some features), but the Panasonic was a very nice TV and had just as good PQ.
bobtheHDbuilder @ Oct 15th 2008 12:39PM
Of course the KURO is the end-all-be-all, however you can get a fantastic image from other plasma's. Panasonic's lineup is almost always regarded as right behind Pioneer. Depending on what you specifically need in your setup, I'd go with the PZ850, PZ800 or the PZ85 line.
michael @ Oct 15th 2008 3:12PM
The Pioneer 5020 can be had for 2500 from amazon
Donnie @ Oct 15th 2008 12:50PM
Get the Panny 50PZ800U. I have one and it is the best tv I have seen for the money. You can get for around $2k at Circuit City with their new price match policy. Stay away from Vizio.... you get what you pay for.
Kuro is the best... but not $2k better than Panny mentioned above.
Fargus @ Oct 15th 2008 12:56PM
It might not be 2K better, but its definately 500 better. You can get a Pioneer 5020 for 2500 at best buy right NOW. If you are going to quote a street price on a panasonic, please put it up against the street price of the KURO and not MSRP....
Joe Maki @ Oct 15th 2008 1:01PM
The KURO PDP5010FD can be gotten for under $2500.
Yenraf @ Oct 15th 2008 1:24PM
Note that it's difficult to compare prices, as the post says, he's going to buy on Black Friday or holiday season, black friday prices are hard to gauge, especially when you are attempting to come up w/ the best price to pq ratio... personally I've all but decided on the 50PZ800U, it all really depends upon the prices of the 50in and the prices of other tv's compared to it...
Plus the 50PZ800U just looks sweet w/ the one piece of glass design... I'm excited, i just hope it comes down into my price range... 1600 anybody? lol
Donnie @ Oct 15th 2008 2:42PM
@ Fargus
Maybe you should check prices NOW... because that 5020 is $3k from best buy.....
If you are going to point out a mistake you better make sure you are not making one.
So to restate my argument the 5020 is not $1k better than the 50PZ800U.
Fargus @ Oct 15th 2008 3:22PM
@ Donnie
I guess they raised it back to 3000. How about www.plasmaconcepts.com, they have the Kuro 5020 for $2445.30....
g00fba11 @ Oct 16th 2008 11:20AM
If you work for a major corporation, you may want to see if your company has corporate discount with Panasonic. The 50PZ800U with corp. discount is $1,751. Even more amazing, the 58" is $2,591.
Guyver @ Oct 15th 2008 1:14PM
The Pioneer Kuros elite is the gold standard, be that as it may, the upcoming Vizio VP505XVT has some noteworthy features for cheap:
1. 100,000 Hour Panasonic Plasma Panel
2. 10-bit Display (1 billion colors vs. 8-bit's 16.7 million colors.... goodbye halos)
3. Uses a Silicon Optix HQV Video Processor (used in Denon, Marantz, and Onkyo products.... equivalent Sony video processor is found on their XBR models.... a 52" Sony XBR is about $4,000).
4. I'm guessing the Vizio XVT 50" 1080p plasma will sell for $1,399. Why? Because their current 1080p 50" plasmas are selling for $1,399 or less at Costco and Sam's club and these models and the upcoming XVT 50" plasmas have a MSRP of $1,699.
Look here: http://www.vizio.com/productDetails.aspx?id=1600&pid=1502
Tzedekh @ Oct 15th 2008 2:19PM
As good as Panasonic's DPDs are, there are still issue I'd wish they'd fix. Set-up and configuration are still limited compared with the LCD and PDP models of other manufacturers. And their 2:2 (48-Hz) 24p setting has been almost universally criticized for such pronounced flickering that it's almost unwatchable.
Guyver @ Oct 15th 2008 4:39PM
Tzedekh,
What you're griping about is with respect to Panasonic's choice in video processing and not necessarily their plasma panels. Pioneer is or will be using Panasonic panels for their Kuros.
The Silicon Optix HQV video processor in the Vizio VP505XVT will pretty much handle the things you're griping about with respect to the Panasonic Plasma HDTVs' video processing (and not necessarily the panels themselves).
Here's what you can expect from the upcoming Vizio VP505XVT Plasma HDTV with respect to video processing: http://www.hqv.com/technology.cfm (the videos are worth watching).
Tzedekh @ Oct 15th 2008 6:20PM
You're right that the panel and the video processing circuitry shouldn't be confused. Unfortunately, both the Vizio and the HQV Web sites say that 24p footage is converted into 48 fields per second, when it should be 72 Hz (3:3 cadence, a la Pioneer Kuro) or even 120 Hz.
Guyver @ Oct 15th 2008 1:19PM
I forgot to mention that Pioneer is getting out of the business of manufacturing plasma panels if they haven't already done so. Either starting with this year's models or next year's, Pioneer Plasma HDTVs will be using Panasonic panels...... the difference lies in the video processing.
cdpage @ Oct 22nd 2008 1:41PM
Does this mean that new Pioneers will have the same problem most plasmas have now?
that is the ghost image from multilayer glass, that becomes obvious with white text on a black backgound.
Todd M. @ Oct 15th 2008 1:27PM
I did a lot of research earlier this year (May timeframe) about the best value in Plasma displays. I'm surprised it's not listed on here, but after much research I decided to get the 50" Samsung A550 and I have to say it was the best $1899 I have ever spent. The great thing about this set is that it comes out of the box with pretty good color settings and with the advanced controls you are really able to dial it in (especially if you use the service menu). It is also one of the only sets (at least in this price range) to have a "blue only" mode, for color calibration. I read review after review and never found one bad thing mentioned about this set, nor can I think of anything... maybe better handling of anmorphic vs. 4:3 SD video, but it's really not a problem.
I got it right when they came out and found the $1899 price, though even the week after I bought it the price shot up to $2199 (I think because of demand for this particular model).
If you want to spend less than $2000 I don't think you will find anything that compares.
jeff @ Oct 15th 2008 1:35PM
I really enjoy my Mitsubishi Diamond 46inch, but no matter what size you get expect to get it home and say "wow this thing is huge" six months later "man I wish I had a 120". But for about $3000 I love the diamond.
MadDog @ Oct 15th 2008 1:35PM
Panasonic makes great looking plasma TVs for the price. I am very happy with my 42" Panny.
nathanlowhorn @ Oct 15th 2008 1:36PM
I'm a big fan of Panasonic. Seems to be some of the best next to Pioneer at much better prices. I love my PZ85U! Check out some pics and a video tour at http://www.brothersontech.com/product/2299
Mark @ Oct 15th 2008 1:45PM
Best bang for your buck, I would go with the Panasonic PZ85 series. I have the TH-50PZ85 and seriously no regrets here whatsoever!
Andy Sullivan @ Oct 15th 2008 1:53PM
On that special day you will see some deals that will knock your socks off. I will be thinking bigger than 50" so my choices may be limited but for those looking at 50" be ready to hit the streets early.
Mark @ Oct 15th 2008 1:59PM
Pioneer KURO might have some competition: http://hdguru.com/panasonic-premiere-th-65vx100-the-new-king-of-flat-panels-exclusive-first-review/276/
Craig Rupert @ Oct 15th 2008 2:10PM
I believe this will be the best information someone could offer. PQ is of utmost importance but I will tell you bigger is better. Now if money is no object buy the Pioneer 60" Elite you will not regret it although you may have a hard time swallowing the $6500 price tag. if the $6500 price tag is too hard to swallow go with the Pioneer 6020 although the price tag is pretty hefty at 5K. If you find yourself deciding against the high priced Pioneer 60" displays go with the Panasonic 58". 800 series
IMHO if you have the funds buy one of the Pioneer 60" displays their inky black levels cannot be rivaled which is key in darkroom viewing, but if you are having a hard time with that price tag buy the 58" Panasonic over the 50" Pioneer.
cwnyc @ Oct 15th 2008 3:55PM
I just got a Pioneer Kuro 6020 for $3999.99 from a very reputable online authorized dealer that I have been buying for a long time (starts with ONE). My friend also bought 2 of the same 60" units from the same dealer. All are brand new working fine. Costcos also sell this model for $4300. I also have a Vizio 50" plasma. Once you go black, you can't go back. Selling my Vizio as soon as there is a buyer...
Jason @ Oct 15th 2008 2:14PM
Pioneer plasma is the only way to go. I have had mine for two years and i do not walk into a house with another tv that even looks close.
Matty @ Oct 15th 2008 3:09PM
I got a Panny 58 incher a few months ago and was so pleased with it I just got a 42 for my bedroom. I love these things. The PQ is amazing.
palehorse @ Oct 15th 2008 3:26PM
I'll personally be looking for a deal on a Pioneer 50" 1080p Plasma on Black Friday. My 43" 1080i Pioneer (PDP-43A5), from Black Friday 2005, will be retired to the bedroom... :)
Pioneer FTW!
Eduardo @ Oct 15th 2008 3:29PM
We purchased our Pioneer Elite Kuro and i'd have to say I dont regret any money spent on it. The damn thing is gorgeous no matter what time of day or night I am watching TV. Save up and get the Pioneer.
glenn s @ Oct 15th 2008 3:35PM
Another vote for Panasonic here. I've had mine for about 2.5 years and the quality is still excellent. (Of course I paid $2400 for a 42" panel back then).
hkva @ Oct 15th 2008 4:06PM
Kuro is the one to go with. The one main thing with Pioneer that drws me to it is, if one watches SD signal the streching does not distort the picture like others do and I still have not seen another brand do what pioneer does with this Another big factor the black levels on the Pioneer are not even touched by Vizio.
SteveMak @ Oct 15th 2008 4:06PM
I, like millions of others, am avoiding plasma because of burn-in issues. It is inherent in the technology. Before you chime in with claims of "100,000 life", note that this "life" bears no relationship to burn-in! Check your plasma manufacturer's warranty, and you will note that burn-in is NOT listed as a defect, because it is inherent to the technology.
No amount of "proper care" can prevent plasma's burn-in. And unless you are prepared to crop and/or distort your screen image to always fit to a full 16:9, avoid banners (like CNN), and logos (like Discovery, History Channel, National Geographic channel, etc), and don't play video games that have score boards, borders, or fixed content like a HUD or a dashboard, and don't freeze-frame for any significant length of time, you will get burn-in.
Manufacturers have done all sorts of clever things to make burn-in less noticable like pixel shifting (to make burned-in images blurred), showing gray bars intead of black (burn in more slowly), and marketing material ("60,000 hour half-life" leads some buyers think this means time to visible burn-in), but the bottom line remains unchanged: Plasma will burn in.
BTW, I understand that some folks may not notice burn-in. Similarly, some folks don't notice a 4:3 image stretched on a 16:9 screen.
Guyver @ Oct 15th 2008 4:36PM
All CRTs and Trinitrons "suffer" from the same problem. I've had my Sony Trinitron for well over 10 years and I have no signs of phosphor burn.
Phosphor burn results when you have a static image on the screen for hours on end.
There is no perfect display technology out there but I think you're making a big deal out of nothing.
Donnie @ Oct 15th 2008 4:33PM
@SteveMak
If you would take time to read the question... the person said the want blacks and not grays, so plasma is the only way to go..
Sammy's LED does produce good blacks but it also produces halos.
And shut up about burn in is "Inherent" in Plasmas design. It is much less likely.
I have a 50PZ800U and I dont stretch anything. I have yet to see any bit of burn in. And before you say... I can tell what burn in is.... my father had a first gen plasma which was terrible.
I play PSWii60 all the time (4-5 hrs straight of halo and COD4) and watch movies that have black bars and do not get any of the ghosting.
Stop blowing stuff out of proportion
Sorry for the rant and the never ending comment. Sorry for extending the comment with saying sorry...crap
DEEZNUTZ @ Oct 15th 2008 5:44PM
Get your facts straight. There's a clear difference between "burn-in" and image retention.
Burn-in is permanent. This is very rare now with plasma's. Can it happen? Sure if you're stupid enough to have your TV in torch mode playing CNN non-stop
Image retention IS something that plasmas will give you. Playing video games for a while or watching a 2.35:1 movie, I will see the bars or a games health bar in another image, but it goes away quickly.
For better PQ than LCD, I can more than live with some negligible IR.
DEEZNUTZ @ Oct 15th 2008 5:44PM
Get your facts straight. There's a clear difference between "burn-in" and image retention.
Burn-in is permanent. This is very rare now with plasma's. Can it happen? Sure if you're stupid enough to have your TV in torch mode playing CNN non-stop
Image retention IS something that plasmas will give you. Playing video games for a while or watching a 2.35:1 movie, I will see the bars or a games health bar in another image, but it goes away quickly.
For better PQ than LCD, I can more than live with some negligible IR.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Oct 15th 2008 6:47PM
Burn-in is inherent in plasma technology. It comes from the natural brightness decay of plasma. The pixels that are on more decay faster and become "burned". Ones that are always on are of course affected the most.
You cannot prevent burn-in (like by breaking in like some people say) and you cannot remove it except by analyzing the burn-in and burning the unburnt pixels more to match the burned ones.
Plasmas burn more than CRTs because they output so much more light, also the lack of image drift with temperature and bloom means that the burned areas' edges do not get feathered.
Is this the end of the world? No, maybe not. But if you do view 4:3 content on your plasma without swirling on, you will eventually see the edges of the 4:3 image on a grey screen some day. Hopefully (and depending on the panel, likely) it won't be something you can't overlook in normal use. God knows my LCD has image quality issues (mostly uneven backlight) that I manage to overlook in day to day use.
cwnyc @ Oct 16th 2008 6:11AM
Do you actually own a modern plasma set that was made from within the last 2 years? I own BOTH plasma and LCD sets. Today's modern plasma sets are no more prone to burn in as your trusted old cathode ray tube sets. One has to understand that image retention is NOT the same as image burn in. Image retention is temporary and will subside over time with regular program material, image burn in is permanent.
Since I have both LCD and plasma sets in the house, I can tell you that I have accidentally fell asleep while leaving my plasma sets with fixed banners from CNN on all night, and there was a retention issue that resolved by itself within 20 min or so, but no permanent image burn in issues. This was verified with all white field video test signals with varying setting of contrast level and gamma curves after the fact.
SteveMak @ Oct 16th 2008 9:27AM
I am reading several types of responses from folks, which sound like they fall into one of the three following categories:
(1) Modern plasma sets do not get burn-in
(2) You're over-reacting to the fact that plasmas are susceptible to burn-in
(3) *My* plasma has no burn-in, so so I'm okay
Note that I am *not* flaming plasma consumers, nor criticizing them for their choice. That's *their* choice. The decline of plasma's popularity, and the rise in LCD's popularity (which are typically more expensive than plasma per diagonal inch of HDTV, and which owns a bigger market share than plasma), is showing a trend that consumers, as a whole, are making different choices.
As soon as someone can point me to a manufacturer whose warranty covers burn-in on their high-quality plasma HDTVs, then I will add plasma to my list of prospective technologies for my next HDTV.
cwnyc @ Oct 16th 2008 10:44AM
Please refer to my comment on the phosphorous emissive display technologies...
But your points have several flaws:
1. No one is claiming image burn in will not occur with plasma displays. It is just not as easily done now days. It is comparable with CRT sets. If one chooses not to purchase a plasma set solely on the issue of image burn in, then the same should be applied to CRT sets. Yet, CRT sets have been used for video game consoles in the past...
2. LCD displays are more expensive than plasma sets. However, the trend of LCD sets selling over plasma sets are of the following factors:
A. LCD sets are brighter but with poorer black level and shadow detail performance. The human eye is drawn towards bright displays, that is why all displays on the sales floor, whether it is LCD, plasma, CRT, are all set to very high color temperature and very bright. This is one of the primary reason why LCDs sold better in the past.
B. Plasma sets typically are available only for 37" and bigger, with most common sets 50" or above. Majority of the consumers purchasing HDTV are purchasing sets 37" and smaller, therefore the choices are severely biased towards LCD sets.
C. Almost 100% of the sales persons at common consumer electronics stores have very low level and often mistaken knowledge of the science behind these technologies, and they push for LCD sets, which are eye pleasing and bright.
The rise of LCD sales is very similar to audio brands like BOSE selling well. Quality audio and video performance takes some training to understand and spot, and there are a lot of tricks manufacturers know how to fool the ears or eyes to cover up substandard performance. However, once a person knows how to spot certain performance issues, it is often very difficult to go backwards as one can notice the performance issues all the time... It is why many who chose plasma sets, when buying new sets, tends to choose plasma sets again. This is even true for ones who own both technologies (like myself).
cwnyc @ Oct 16th 2008 10:45AM
Oh forgot one point..
Furthermore, manufactures will include all risk factors, no matter how big, how small, how insane, and every possible misuse scenarios, to limit their responsibility when it comes to warranty coverage. The definition of "normal use" out of these warranties are pretty narrow and strict. If one is avoiding a certain product because the warranty does not cover severe and gross misuse of product, then no one will ever purchase anything....
Yes, image retention and image burn in CAN occur with plasma sets, and can ALSO occur with CRT sets, but it is not that likely. Of course a manufacturer will not encourage misuse, no matter how gross and severe, and this is reflected in the warranty service contract.
cwnyc @ Oct 16th 2008 11:01AM
Oh a few other points...
1. There is a resurgence of plasma sales recently. As a matter of fact, this was reported right here at EngadgetHD.
2. I have yet to read a single review from any reviewers who prefer LCD over plasma. These are people who understand the science behind the technologies and have trained eyes, and they pick plasma over LCD over and over. They know better than the average consumers or sales persons.
3. The sales of HDTV sets above 50"/52" has always been plasma over LCD, past and present. LCD sets larger than 52" are prohibitively expensive and performs far inferior to plasma sets of the same sizes.
Brett @ Oct 15th 2008 4:09PM
I have a Panasonic 800u and its performance is comparable to the Kuro. Save some money for a new receiver, blu ray player, or the end of civilization as we know it.