$150 Blu-ray players destined for Black Friday?
[Image courtesy of NielsPettersolberg]
[Image courtesy of NielsPettersolberg]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Multi-format-mayhem @ Oct 15th 2008 9:41AM
Perhaps.
But really, so what? What difference will it make?
HD DVD already showed that (and this was in a time of no slump/recession) that nothing much happens until you hit $99.
Traders all over the western world are seeing sales plummet right now as the economic crisis begins to bite - and it has not even really got going yet.
Unemployment is climbing and credit is vanishing.
It'll last for years too.
In case people have missed it the IMF are warning of a "global financial melt-down".
European Govs alone have bailed out their insane financial sectors to the tune of $2 trillion.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a3FTBre5jVZo&refer=home
The US deficit after this single round of disaster is about to hit another $2 trillion
http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/bank-us-government/2008/10/15/
So, where is the money to come from?
Govs have 2 choices, tax the people to pay it back or allow inflation to rip to reduce the value of the debt - and you can guess which (easier) option they will prefer.
Whatever happens higher prices are undoubtedly on the way and credit will be much tighter and this means the public's spending priorities are unlikely to stray too far beyond the necessities, at least for some time.
In 12mths time (no matter what small blip this black friday or X-mas period brings) the last thing on the general public's mind is going to be an expensive new video format, no matter what those devoted here might imagine.
DrXym @ Oct 15th 2008 10:26AM
Let's recap some of the arguments you've chosen to hate on blu recently.
1. Blockbusters sell more copies than thoughtful movies (even though the same is true on every format be it VHS, DVD, iTunes, HD DVD, Blu Ray or cinema) therefore Blu Ray sucks
2. Licence fees scared off some independent you know (even though its only 62 cents even for a small 10,000 disc run) therefore Blu Ray sucks
3. The government bailed out the banks (even though a downturn affects all consumer spending, not just one format) therefore Blu Ray sucks.
What stupid argument will you use next? Why do you even care if you hate the format so much?
okeygrak @ Oct 15th 2008 10:39AM
Bro,
Just give it up. Please. Your messages are simply a waste of electrons fired the faces of all the readers here who glance past the vomit smoothie that your brain is trying to connect into a cohesive statement.
You shamelessly hate blu-ray. You hate the adoption of a premium high definition format. You hate when players get cheaper, sales are up, adoption increases, and better content is released.
Unfortunately, the rest of the readers here. DO NOT.
MadDog @ Oct 15th 2008 11:24AM
But he did state that the release of Boondock Saints could be the reason he goes blu.
Also, it has been reported a lot, that in the times of financial crisis, consumer spending tends to shift towards home entertainment.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Oct 15th 2008 11:52AM
Seriously, when you have nothing left but talking about your 'love' or other people's (as you see it) 'hate' for a CE product maybe then is the time for a little reality check.
You might not want to admit the economic catastrophe that has just happened has wrecked any chance (already slim) Blu-ray had of replacing DVD but there it is.
$2 trillion in the US & $2 trillion in Europe - and that's just for starters.
But to you it's nothing, just facts to be written off as 'hate'.
Very funny.
PR campaigns are always screwed by everyday reality, always have been always will be.
Unlucky.
Suck it up.
Oh and Maddog, I already bought into Blu-ray, I have a very nice dual format player, thanks.
(maybe it was too subtle but the clue is in the nick)
benny boy @ Oct 15th 2008 1:03PM
Or you could say that because of the economic meltdown, that people will be spending more on home entertainment rather than spending money on going out, going on holiday etc...
Stop speaking as if you know exactly what's going to happen FFS.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Stop spreading your (rather biased) opinion around as if it is fact. People don't mind you having an opinion but when you try to show everyone how you can predict the future and you know exactly what's going to happen in the future, everyone starts to ignore the spin. If you want your OPINION to be respected, stop writing them all as facts.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Oct 15th 2008 1:26PM
@ benny boy
It's not a matter opinion as far as the unique & extremely dire state of the western economies go.
You'd have to be insane to ignore the credit crunch which entails a record $4 trillion in losses and debt, and that's only after stage 1 so far.
Then there's the small matter that this is coupled with a recession that was on the way anyway.
Only an idiot would try & pretend that this isn't going to have a massive effect on the consumer and retail spending - especially on a brand new and relatively expensive item like a new movie player format.
But feel free to live in denial of this if you like, no-one is stopping you.
DA @ Oct 15th 2008 1:45PM
Please reference:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/08/the-sky-is-falling-but-electronics-sales-are-soaring/
MadDog @ Oct 15th 2008 1:51PM
Now I see the light. It's not that you think blu-ray, or hi-def movies on disk are bad, it's that you feel that HD-DVD had the better chance to replace Dvd, since the players were down to $100 at Walmart (and still not selling). It's those awful PS3 gamers who bought 2-3 times the number of disks for blockbuster movies on blu-ray, rather than HD-DVD. I also supported both formats, but can look past the loss of HD-DVD to continue to see movies in their best home theater presentation.
Mark @ Oct 16th 2008 5:17AM
HDDVD players only went down to $99 because the format was dead. Walmart and others were just trying to clear their channels before the axe officially fell. Even before that both formats had nearly identical hardware requirements and therefore similar underlying costs so any price discrepancy was due to Toshiba subsidizing their players, not because they were "cheaper".
FFS 10 months on and people are still wailing at blu because their own video format lost. The tools exist to rip your HD DVD collection and transfer it to any format of your choosing or you can keep watching it on your player. Get over it and move on.
Adam @ Oct 15th 2008 9:56AM
the BD-P1500 is a Profile 2.0 player!
DrXym @ Oct 15th 2008 10:16AM
You probably have to stick a USB stick in the back to make it so. Personally I don't think 2.0 is going to mean much until players with wireless start appearing. Most people are not going to run a cat 5 cable to their player just so their disc can download a few trailers.
Abouna @ Oct 15th 2008 10:03AM
I'm sorry but that's a load.
The media likes to hype everything, the economy is no different. Just walk into any decent sized store, I still see people pushing 50" screens out the door, the malls are full (as usual), people are still over-paying for pretty much everything buying B&M instead of online......
The economy is hardly any different than it was, all mostly hype for regular working Americans. The biggest problem is Americans have got used to having everything their heart desires and whenever they have to cut back just a bit (meaning no SUV this year, maybe next, to go with the RV, boat, and all the other crap people think they "deserve") they crumble and whine about the economy.
Since when was it governments responsibility to control the economy and make sure it's running right? Do you want a free market or socialism?
As for BDs, $150 is better but Profile 1.1 kind of stinks. $99 is the sweet spot.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Oct 15th 2008 12:41PM
@ Abouna
If your eyes and ears are really closed to what has been going on then good luck to you in your splendid isolation.
The facts are that the economic numbers are down everywhere.
Gov debt is at an astronomic level thanks to bailing out that 'free market'.
The truth is that neither a 100% free market nor a 100% command economy is best, the market needs proper rules & regulation to function.
Those that are kids at schools or college might not see it, or might prefer to deny it,
(I guess their part time jobs at McDonalds are the greatest indicator of macro-economic
activity) but those out in the real world certainly will.
KraziJoe @ Oct 15th 2008 10:10AM
They better make sure it's been updated to the latest firmware and that that firmware makes the player work near flawless with all Blu-Ray movies.
Most people just want to stick in the disc and watch a movie. They don't want to have to update the Firmware to play a movie or sit there a reset their player time and again just when the movie gets interesting.
wreckedchevy @ Oct 15th 2008 1:32PM
my only issue with bluray is the profiles average joe isn't going to know anything about profiles and they are going to be pissed when they realise they can't use everything on the disc. they need to do something at the store front to make sure people understand what each player can and can't do.
The Fuzz 53 @ Oct 15th 2008 10:45AM
hmm, do I buy a BDP-1500 now for $215 and get the Matrix trilogy for free, or wait a month and get it for $150??
Mr_Fizzlepop @ Oct 15th 2008 3:07PM
I got the Matrix Trilogy from Amazon for 74.95, so the difference in that price is still better at only 65 dollars for it.
If you really are planning on getting the Matrix trilogy, that's a pretty darn good deal, and unless you wait and buy a used copy it's probably not likely to ever go below half the MSRP which is 130 dollars (Surprise! half is 65 dollars.).
ebay?!More_Like_eGay @ Oct 15th 2008 11:05AM
Eh... I think some people are still suffering the battle wounds of the 'Format Wars'. I myself have a 46inch 1080P LCD and would love to watch some hi-def movies, but there is some doubt and bad taste in my mouth about blu-ray still. I won't hate on it, but I'm not convinced yet that I want to spend $$$ on it.
To this day, i still don't personally know a single person (friends, family, enemies or co-workers) who have a blu-ray player. I don't even know a single person w/ a PS3. I'm not exaggerating or trying to talk down on PS3/Blu ray, I'm just saying, that's my experience as of now.
Eventually I'll get a PS3 in the somewhat-far future when the next round of price cuts come, and I guess taht will be my gateway to BD. But until then, I have no desire to get a BD player. Heck, I'd rather spend $100 on a Roku Netflix player... even with it's SD quality...
Alex @ Oct 15th 2008 8:32PM
I am close there with ya ebay[...]
I know 8 people with their HD DVD relics, and only one with a PS3 (who also has an HD DVD).
I don't know anyone with a standalone Blu Ray player.
It might change after Black Friday, or the January dump-off sales but I don't think it is going to be significant. I won't be buying one this year!
Achilles @ Oct 15th 2008 11:20AM
Only time will tell which models will be put on sale during "Viernes Negro."
lucyfan62 @ Oct 15th 2008 11:55AM
Now if only Sony would drop the retail price on the PS3, Blu-ray would really be in business! I'm shocked that even after almost a year it's still selling at $399.99 at most places.
morpheus73 @ Oct 15th 2008 12:08PM
Oy.
TT, you've really got to get over your pathological hatred of Blu. If it's not your cup of tea, that's fine; upscaling DVD's and downloads are there for you. Some of us actually like seeing movies in the best format possible and aren't still dealing with an HD-DVD hangover like you clearly are.
Lucyfan- I agree about the PS3 price. With the standalone players dropping in price and Microsoft cutting the prices on the 360, Sony doesn't really have a choice but to bring the price down, whether Kaz Harai likes it or not. A drop to $349 makes alot of sense. Sony still hasn't figured out how to market and sell that machine properly.
John Crane @ Oct 15th 2008 12:36PM
Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi and...Maggie Gyllenhaal?
DavidB @ Oct 15th 2008 1:25PM
We're seeing $209 bundles now, so sub-$150 machines would be no surprise by Black Friday, assuming there are any old inventory left by then!
Yup, $99 is the sweet spot, but unless sales bomb between now and Christmas I don't think we'll see that price point hit. If sales DO tank, after-Christmas sales might hit $99 to clear shelves before end of calendar year???
And of course it would be very nice if movie prices dropped. But heck, is $25 REALLY too much to spend for a Blu-ray when you can hardly take you and the significant other to a movie in a theater for that? Not to mention cost of fuel, cost of baby-sitter, unrealized replay potential, etc. etc. etc. The wife and I haven't bothered with a theater for a couple years, the experience just ain't all that any more and we instead focus our entertainment dollars on repeatable use items like comfy couches, big screen TV, and, yes, Blu-ray player and movies!!!
Andy Sullivan @ Oct 15th 2008 1:53PM
So, of the machines possibly going for $150 which is the best? What models may be priced at $199 and be worth the difference for those just wanting to watch the DVD?
George @ Oct 15th 2008 2:09PM
eCost has the Samsung BDP1400 for $188 right now.
Carrie @ Oct 15th 2008 2:13PM
My favorite site for Black Friday ads & rumors:
http://blackfriday.gottadeal.com
Alex @ Oct 15th 2008 3:31PM
deja vu! This year we will get another round of cheap HD players that are obsolete and buggy to ensure the death of Blu Ray by next spring. Sheesh.
On the Stern show they were talking about how all of their Blu Ray players lock up or shut down in the middle of movies, and they can afford to pay people to set up their home theater.
I can't wait to see it all again this X-mas.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Oct 15th 2008 3:54PM
@ DA
I call BS, only today we saw US retail sales numbers down to a 3yr low (and we have a long way to go yet).
If you could show Blu-ray sales numbers up then I might believe what you're saying but this engadget story is light on detail.
Big screen TVs might hold theior own for a while but a brand new and relatively expensive video player is unlikely in the extreme.
From todays Forbes
"Sales were down in every major retail category except health and personal care stores and gas stations"
http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/10/15/afx5557091.html
@ Maddog
Actually I have never said Blu-ray or high def movies on disc are "bad".
I do think that Blu-ray was the worse choice.
It was understandable given the initial spurt the PS3 gave the format but that has turned out to be a poor long-term strategy and keeping the format all but invisible amongst the general public.
The current worsening economic climate just guarantees it's not going to branch out much beyond the PS3 niche.
MadDog @ Oct 15th 2008 5:28PM
What I don't understand is where you claim that blu-ray has a poor long term strategy. At this point in time, blu-ray sales are tracking on pace, or slightly ahead of Dvd adoption for the same time period. It took six years for Dvd to replace VHS in the market and you didn't need a HDTV to reap the benefits. Stand alone blu-ray players are selling at the same, or lower overall price than Dvd players during the same development timeframe as indicated by this article and a lot of the comments above. New media formats take time, and there have been many that have gone the way of the dust bin, and blu-ray may be the next. Stating that blu-ray will 'never branch beyond the PS3 niche' is your opinion, not a fact.
Will the downturn economy effect adoption of blu-ray? That is yet to be seen. Does it have the potential? Certainly. There are significant contradictory news articles which claim 'home entertainment sales increase during economic strife' vs 'the downturn market will see significant financial losses for the electronics industry'. We can both provide links to either. The point is, no one knows what is going to happen. Is blu-ray a niche product currently? Yes. Will it always be? Who knows? Certainly not you or me. The difference is I never claimed to know, and you do, in every blu-ray related article on this site.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Oct 15th 2008 6:47PM
@ Maddog.
The BDA have released no verifiable numbers since HD DVD left to substantiate any claim that Blu-ray is being adopted faster than DVD was.
In fact I can show numbers that say the complete opposite.
From march this year, and note that the high def numbers used are for both the Blu-ray & HD DVD numbers combined (and we all know that whilst sales have seen periodic lifts on a handful of titles Blu-ray sales have not in fact rocketed since HD DVD went).
http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/8002/hd-DVD_outsells_blu-ray.html
As for the claim that 'home entertainment sales increase during economic strife'?
Well of course that is true - but only as far as the home entertainment equipment the family already owns goes.
It is unlikely in the extreme to include splashing out on relatively expensive brand new formats and all the kit necessary to enjoy them with.
The singular exception to this is the big TV, for a while at least.
Too many people are addicted to their TV and will spend on that before all else as far as home entertainment goes.
But we've already seen that the big winner this time around is an HD TV service (and probably the DVR to go with it).
It's in this engadgethd story today.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/10/15/blu-ray-player-prices-dropped-12-in-q3-still-in-just-1-7-of-u/
You might object to my comments and how I see developments working out, that's great. It would be a boring place of everyone thought the same stuff.
However.
When I am commenting about how Blu-ray is staying niche and likely to remain so that is on the basis of the numbers.
Some people can't stand seeing the truth about the relative pygmy size Blu-ray holds compared to DVD.
But it is why it is important to note that DVD sells 1.7 billion units in the USA & almost 7 billion worldwide and that Blu-ray is unlikely to have reached even 1% of that number and certainly not 2%.
That's the very definition of niche.
That's a situation you can say is remaining niche and unless economic reality is turned on its head it's a situation from which Blu-ray (given the 5yr 'lifespan' now openly being mentioned by some of it's major backers) cannot help but stay niche.
As I have said since I began posting, Blu-ray is the new Laserdisc.
It's a high margin niche product and staying that way.
Those who want to fool themselves & others that this is not the case are free to do so but I will continue to post the hard reality as and when I see fit.
As for the economy?
Every serious commentator is out there saying this is a huge hole and when you have the likes of the IMF talking 'economic meltdown' (exact quote) and you have Govs in Europe and the USA (at stage 1) spending or taking on liabilities of $2 trillion each(!) you know this is about as far up poo-creek as this generation has ever gotten.
squiggleslash @ Oct 16th 2008 8:44AM
MFM: HD DVD is/was outselling Blu-ray Disc solely because it's cheap and HD DVD owners are fairly desperate for content and worried titles will not be available in the long term. Comparing it to Blu-ray is spectacularly unhelpful at this stage.
The 1.7% marketshare figure bandied around by Engadget HD yesterday referred to sales of standalone players. The Playstation 3 upsets the apple cart in a number of ways, there are many, many, times as many PS3s around than standalone players, and people are buying PS3s as their primary BD player simply because it represents the best value and most futureproof of the available players, and in all honesty will probably continue to be for the foreseeable future. Until recently, it was also one of the cheapest.
It is not possible to determine how many PS3s are being used as Blu-ray players. And last week's Iron Man sales make the situation even more confusing, as Iron Man fits into a narrow category of movies that would appeal to the kind of person who'd buy a PS3 for games.
At this point, it's simply not sustainable to argue Blu-ray's progress on any basis other than sales of DVDs and Blu-ray Discs in carefully picked weeks that are not disproportionately affected either by releases of unusual titles, like Iron Man, or titles that are getting a first Blu-ray release separate from their DVD release. For the next few months, that's going to be awkward as a lot of studios are rereleasing major titles on Blu-ray that have been out on DVD for a while, while releasing blockbusters in both formats.
I personally believe Blu-ray is the wrong format at the wrong price at the wrong time. But I'm not going to let my dislike for this half-arsed format skew my view of its success or failure in terms of consumer adoption. Quoting HD DVD figures or sales of standalone players is very unhelpful to the discussion.
Multi-format-mayhem @ Oct 16th 2008 9:55AM
squiggleslash
But I wasn't comparing HD DVD to Blu-ray.
I was just answering the point about the claim that Blu-ray is taking off at a similar or faster rate than DVD did.
There are no independent numbers and the only ones that seem to exist are figures that offer a combined total of the 2 high def formats together (and it certainly does not bear out the claim).
MadDog @ Oct 17th 2008 9:11AM
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/15122-Blu-ray-sales-grow-800-in-next-4-years.html
I always thought NPD Group was about as independent as it gets......
Mitchell @ Oct 15th 2008 11:14PM
Since when is the BD-P1500 a discontinued product? Last weeks podcast Ben just said it was a "new" player that got the 2.0 FW update? Samsung is discontinuing it already? Where is this new posted? heck it just came out a ~6mo ago.
Now the Sony 300 that's a different story.
Mitchell
Victor @ Oct 16th 2008 4:28AM
I agree to a certain extent about the current financial crisis putting a dent in the holiday shopping for sure, which will affect Blu-Ray.
I also agree that with all the different Profiles, the normal consumer is going to buy a 1.1 and get 2.0 software and then be pissed when they can't update the firmware if they even know what that means.
Blu-ray is, unfortunately, too complicated for the normal consumer. Someone who just walks into Wal-Mart and buys a Vizio 720p LCD and thinks they have all the HD they ever need. And maybe they do, but that's the battle for HD right now... consumer recognition and knowledge.
I'm pretty well versed in all HT and CE, but it's still frustrating to me. I hate having to have a damn CAT cable strung up in my living room. How long until wireless stand alones? A looooooooong time, maybe never. And the sheer amount of problems with the Java system and the slow loading times on everything but the PS3 (I have a Panasonic BDP 30 and a Sony 350 stand alone as well as a PS3 so don't start yelling at me about how your load time is so awesomely fast).
I don't know... Blu-Ray may make it, and I have about 300 discs so far and counting, I just bought seven on Tues alone, so I'm invested. I just don't know if its here to stay, or if it's a stopgap between DVD and HD downloads.
Plus, I really hate having to type a hyphen every time I type Blu-ray. Make it one word already!
Mark @ Oct 16th 2008 5:52AM
I don't think consumers will be pissed because I don't believe many would even expect internet connectivity or be mad if it doesn't offer it. I think that even if 2.0 was the defacto profile that only a fraction would be hooked up.
squiggleslash @ Oct 16th 2008 8:51AM
Blu-ray networking is optional, it's just if you don't hook it up you don't get the extras. The same was true of HD DVD. A Cat5 cable may be "yet another cable", but it's considerably more friendly than Wifi, which requires the user pick SSIDs and set up encryption keys and other good stuff.
With HDMI, I think things are getting considerably simpler. The real problem is that HDMI isn't universally supported. TVs have it, BD players have it, and most DVD players have it, but there are still gaps. Anyone who wants decent sound wants it piped through a receiver, and most receivers don't support HDMI (or even worse, insultingly have an "HDMI switch" in them), with manufacturers considering it a premium item. I went into BB a couple of weeks ago and was staggered to find there wasn't a single HDMI receiver in there, except for the ones with switches. This isn't always the case, there are usually three or four, but this time there wasn't a single one.
Anyway, the point is HD doesn't have to be complex as long as people buy the right equipment and the manufacturers stop making the equipment so hard to get hold of. HDMI means it should "just work".
For your final comment, just call it "BD"...
Doc @ Oct 17th 2008 12:13AM
That's a start in the right direction for sure, but when are they going to lower the price of the disks themselves? That is what keeps regular people from buying blu-ray, since they don't want to pay an idiot/dork tax for what they see as the same product, but for more. Sure you can find sales here and there, but until you can walk into a best buy or a wal-mart and find blu-ray titles for $5 more than standard dvd's I don't see it taking off like they hope.
Gus @ Oct 15th 2008 7:30PM
Hard to imagine them lowering the prices of the discs significantly for a very long time, as someone said here recently, if they are gong to have cheaper blu ray discs, what's the point of having a new product that is more expensive to produce in the first place?
If they are going to compete with DVD on pricing, the studios might as well just stick with DVD.
Substantially higher disc prices will always be a blu ray legacy.
EatingPie @ Oct 16th 2008 10:54PM
Yeah, cite retailers that charge MSRP.
Amazon charges $19.99, $21.99, and Fox titles are $25.99 or so. Right now, Wyatt Earp is $13.99 (and it's not the only one).
I'm not even citing sale prices. These are regular prices. The sales drive prices down a couple bucks more.
This is how it was with DVD. Brick&Mortar ran MSRP, but every online retailer had discounts and sales. Thing is, after SO MANY YEARS, DVD has become a draw for
-Pie