In a recent Forbes article about the big turn around at Sony, we found the moves it took to ensure Blu-ray would win, to be the most interesting. According to the article, the Paramount move (understandably) had the BDA scrambling, which was evidently enough of a stressor to motivate all the divisions of Sony to work together towards a common goal. Among other things, the gaming division dropped the price of the PS3 and the movie studio had to give away Blu-ray movies with the PS3. Overall there's nothing new in the article if you've been
following it all along, but aside from a few obvious mistakes -- Blue-ray and HD-DVD Forbes, really? -- it is interesting to get an inside perspective to the series of events that will always hold a special place in our gadget lives.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
XDragon @ Jul 29th 2008 10:28AM
This is really old news ...but let the flaming begin.
Sami Mashouk @ Aug 5th 2008 2:10PM
lol, but aside frm the ps3 the major reason why sony succeeded was due to their large influence in the film industry.
when betamax was released it didnt catch on because studios were reluctant to invest in new technology as it would render their current equiptment useless; however nowadays sony could easily release blu ray as sony pictures us involved in a great number of productions such as spiderman
Xyzzy @ Jul 29th 2008 10:44AM
"it just shows that consumer preference has nothing to do with reality anymore."
Politics works the same way. Normal people don't matter, only the lobby does.
Lobby=companies.
Companies = rule the country/world.
Truth Teller @ Jul 29th 2008 10:50AM
TBH I didn't think this article told us anything we didn't already know, besides a couple of attributable on the record quotes.
It'll be some time before the whole story emerges IMO.
Right, that's the sensible on-topic stuff dealt with.
Cue the usual PS3/Blu-ray fanclub members wittering on their hardly disguised cheer-leading & barely disguised PR campaign........
Leonardo DiCrapio @ Jul 29th 2008 11:37AM
"It's highly unlikely that you'll hear the real story because Sony did so many anti-trust illegal things that the REAL story won't be available ever because they would be legally responsible."
Nfinity, you are quite sad. It is clear to just about everybody that Blu-Ray (Sony) won the format war because of the Playstation 3. With the success of the PS2, it was clear that even at $400, $500, or $600, the PS3 was going to move millions of units, which made it very easy for PS3 sales to be about 4 to 5 times stand-alone HD DVD sales. So even with PS3 owners having a lower attach rate (buying about a quarter as many Blu-Ray discs as their HD DVD counterparts), the sheer number of PS3's sold enable Blu-Ray to sell more discs in all 52 weeks of 2007 (and Blu-Ray discs outsold HD DVD's by about a 2:1 margin for the entire year of 2007).
If you want to call it an anti-trust illegal thing that they did then fine, I'm not going to argue you about legal semantics that I am not entirely sure of (Sony also owns a movie studio which produced such hits as Spiderman) -- however I doubt you will find a lawyer that will take your case (unless you are paying him out of pocket). Sony may own a horizontal and/or vertical monopoly, but I don't think you will too many people who are going to get up in arms about it. But don't act like what they did wasn't out in the open.
DVD4ME @ Aug 3rd 2008 8:49AM
hey
DVD4ME @ Aug 3rd 2008 8:54AM
hey
mnemonicj @ Jul 29th 2008 10:51AM
Change "the the moves" to "the moves", "division drop the price" to "division dropped the price", and "but asside from" to "but aside from" and this article may pass as a third grader's report. Geez, is English reporting in this country going in the crapper...
Ben @ Jul 29th 2008 10:52AM
Fixed, thanks.
Hakon @ Jul 29th 2008 7:03PM
There shouldn't be a comma after "Blu-ray would win," either, but I think that's fourth grade grammar... maybe in another year we'll see some improvements? :-)
KraziJoe @ Jul 29th 2008 11:20AM
The Read link goes to page 2 of the article instead of page 1.
As for the article. It's not really in depth enough just seems like a rehash of previously know information.
DEEZNUTZ @ Jul 29th 2008 11:27AM
Beating that dead horse called the format war again huh?
And again I call you out on your principles... (or lack thereof). If you are thoroughly convinced about the BDA's criminal activity, why did you support them buying over 100 BD movies? Uh, maybe because you saw some value in the movie format?
Your actions speak WAY louder than your empty words.
Here's the truth: Consumers aren't going bankrupt because of BD. Consumers aren't getting cancer because of BD. Consumers aren't paying high prices at the pump because of BD. Consumers aren't paying high prices at food markets because of BD. You're just a drama queen who makes it as if folks are going into foreclosure because of the BDA. There are so many other things in the world that merit attention. HD movies are not one of them.
You can accuse me of being a fanboy, closing my eyes to reality, whatever. I go by verifiable proof. And even if there WAS proof that studios got FAT payoffs, SO F----ING WHAT? It ended the stupid format war, (which is BETTER for consumers than a devisive 2 format market) and has sped up the release of HD movies from ALL STUDIOS on ONE FORMAT! Toshiba should have played the game to win. They had a good product, they were out in the market first... no excuse. Their marketing sucked, that is why they lost.
BD isn't the holy grail and it isn't perfect, but it's the best in HD for movies right now and that is what I want. I don't want half-ass super upconversion, or overcompressed DL's. I want studios to get movies out on BD, in the best quality allowed by the format.
lakersin2025 @ Jul 29th 2008 12:10PM
When I saw this article I just had to click on the comments to see what Truth and Nfinity had to say. This is pure comedy. They are still pissed off and I couldn't be happier with my PS3.
JimC @ Jul 29th 2008 12:19PM
Nfinity, If Sony made some illegal anti-trust deals, why isn't Toshiba, the "victim" not suing them? Surely if it so obvious to even you, then Toshiba should have a case to recoup some of their lost treasure? Find some hard facts or pipe down. Until then it is your conspiracy theory at best...
h0mi @ Jul 29th 2008 12:44PM
1 thing in the story I'd not heard about before was Lionsgate.
Infinity @ Jul 29th 2008 12:44PM
I have a big Blu-Ray collection, but oddly enough I do nothing but respond to every Blu-Ray related story with frustration and bitterness. Please help me.
Infinity @ Jul 29th 2008 12:52PM
I also enjoy 720p HD with macroblocking and repeat the same points over and over again.
Thank you Engadget HD for allowing me to vent my anger. If it wasn't for this site, I would be doing productive things with my life.
h0mi @ Jul 29th 2008 12:53PM
The Lionsgate lobbying was news to me. Interesting that it nearly jumped ship.
Not that it'd mean much since they released few titles on blu-ray and they weren't remarkable titles until 3:10 to Yuma.
tlarkin79 @ Jul 29th 2008 12:55PM
Blu-ray won the format war? I thought DVD was still winning. What about digital distribution?
Paul Fernandez @ Jul 29th 2008 1:00PM
And most importantly...change "Blue-ray" to "Blu-ray." This should be second nature for you by now, right Ben?
Ben @ Jul 29th 2008 1:02PM
Paul,
It drives me nuts as well, which is why I was calling out Forbes for that mistake as well as using HD-DVD instead of HD DVD.
James @ Jul 29th 2008 1:17PM
If the great Bill Hunt (snicker snicker) can mis-spell HD DVD as HD-DVD for several years then Forbes can be forgiven.
gamedude420 @ Jul 29th 2008 1:31PM
the better tech one end of story nothing illegal has been done. its called competion someone had to die in the battle. its bad to have multiple video formats. it hurts competition to have multipe formats. real compeition is in the blu ray players.
JW @ Jul 29th 2008 3:06PM
Firstly, your grammar is horrendous. Please reference an english dictionary in the future so that others might have a chance at interpreting your incoherent ramblings.
Secondly, your definition of "competition" is completely wrong. I suggest you look up the word and actually understand it within the context of this story before you comment on things you know nothing about. If you have more than one "format," competition will actually be better for the consumer because each competitor will be trying to win over possible customers. When HD-DVD was still prevalent, I remember buying new releases for $20. Now, a new release on Blu-Ray is $30+. How is that better for the consumer? It is not, which is why your logic is flawed.
The fact of the matter is this: Blu-Ray has more money to throw around and they won. I will always cite the superiority of HD-DVD video quality over Blu-Ray with the two copies of "The Italian Job" that I own. The Blu-Ray version looks like a DVD and the HD-DVD version looks outstanding. HD-DVD had the right idea, they just simply did not have the funding. So if your going to debate anything, please have a clear understanding of the facts so that your inherent incompetence doesn't start to infect the minds of others.
Now we move on..... where the heck is Lord of the Rings on Blu-ray, by the way??? LOL!
gamedude420 @ Jul 29th 2008 5:35PM
its is better to have only one player. multiple players kills the market. studios won't risk supporting multiple formats.
gamedude420 @ Jul 29th 2008 5:45PM
who cares about lord of the rings anyways? the movies bored me.
and you can find many new released for $20 and below on bluray.
Rob @ Jul 29th 2008 1:32PM
Hey, writing posts pretending to be "TruthTeller" and/or "Nfinity" is sacrilegious and unfunny. They're the two most enjoyable characters we find around Engadget.
gamedude420 @ Jul 29th 2008 1:32PM
sony arent the only ones involved with bluray. and they did what was right for buisness, for the consumer and for disc tech.
buisness = 1 disc format is the best way to go
consumer - no longer have t worry about making the wrong choice (hddvd)
tech /and consumer = blu rau has both higher capacity, higher bitrate = potential for higher less compressed pic quality and full lossess sound to a higher quality than hddvd could do with its 15GB
WebDev511 @ Jul 29th 2008 3:34PM
Your points..
Business yes, 1 is better, but cost and time to increase replication capacity didn't carry as much weight as some had thought it might.
Consumer, jury is still out as HD DVD/DVD combos were the only way to not make a wrong choice when buying a movie. Not that anyone is going to buy blu and mistake it as a DVD. well not when they see the price.
Tech / Consumer 15GB? Don't you mean 30GB? (and if triple layer had ever made it out of the lab, 51GB would have negated the capacity issue and left only max bit rate in the blu column)
Bottom line is Toshiba totally bungled every edge they had.
Will we ever know who or how much the BDA paid to go / stay blu? Probably not.
DrXym @ Jul 30th 2008 4:49AM
HD DVD could do 30Gb which would be sufficient for most transfers but it didn't leave much space for extras, lossless audio or additional audio tracks. And for TV series and long running movies, the more space the better.
As for Blu Ray being "right for business", yes I agree but not in the way you do. Either HD DVD or Blu Ray had to win outright. There was chance ever of them co-existing. If HD DVD had won it would have been right for business too. People who say consumers should have the "choice" don't get it. Two formats put a dampener on the whole market and consumers were confused and scared to buy into either format. One of them had to die which is why both sides sunk as much money into making sure it wasn't them. Neither had any intention of continuing losing money indefinitely which is what they were doing to end the thing as fast as possible.
In the end, Blu Ray was the winner. It was just more compelling to retailers, to studios and to the consumer electronics industry. I'm sure there were all sorts of back room shenanigans by both sides too. But as consumers I don't think it would have made much difference if it had gone the other way. If HD DVD had won, Toshiba and the stores would have jacked up their prices and I'm sure the anti-Nfinity would be stinking up EngadgetHD bragging about how their $100 Blu Ray player and their $5 discs and lying about their 100 disc HD DVD collection.
gamedude420 @ Jul 29th 2008 1:35PM
im no ps3 fan boy truth teller
and nfinity , they did nothing illegal, if anything toshiba and MS are far far worse they wee blackmailing companies left and right to tr ans save hdvd and going as far as trying to lowball all compeition by going so low toshiba themselves couldnt even afford to keep hdvd
everyone knew to go blu
Fred @ Jul 29th 2008 2:59PM
Here we go again with the conspiracy theories. Why can people just tell it like it is? No one did anything wrong, well check that. Sony did what it had to do to win. And Toshiba…uhhhhhh missed the boat. If they were smart they would have had the HDDVD drive in the 360 and it probably would have won. But they didn’t. And to Truth Seller who wrote that gamers don’t buy movies. Uhhhhh yes they do, why do you think Blu-Ray won??? Price point, quality, what???
Stop throwing Microsoft with Toshiba, they are not partners.
BillyIPod @ Jul 29th 2008 5:42PM
I'm sorry WebDev511, but you seem to be the only one who doesn't understand that my comments are meant to be a parody of Truth Teller. So when I said that gamers don't buy movies, well you should know now that I was actually implying that this argument is nonsense.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Jul 29th 2008 2:35PM
It shows a couple things, like foremost, Sony is a much more savvy company than Toshiba. Why make direct payoffs when they might be considered antitrust violations or even merely "evil" when you can instead just give $60M in co-marketing, which is seen as promoting your own format instead of putting the other down. It has the same effect essentially, and you can call it a payoff if you wish. But it's how the game is played.
Honestly, I think this belittles the biggest point which is Toshiba's strategy of subsidizing their players so heavily meant HD DVD was a strict "go it alone" format and thus restricted competition on the hardware side, making it impossible for HD DVD to get broad support from hardware companies. It's unclear what path there was which ended up with HD DVD being a success in the broad market.
Fred @ Jul 29th 2008 3:02PM
Great point… Sony knew that they needed to incorporate blu into other things to kick it off. Meanwhile Toshiba hoped that the one on one battle between HD and Blu would go their way.
It was the classic stock scenario.
Put all your chips in one stock, or diversify your portfolio.
DEEZNUTZ @ Jul 29th 2008 3:27PM
NFINITY's comments just went poof... did he get the ban so many have been clamoring for?
Personally, I hope it's not so. While his comments are outlandish and nonsensical, he's the crazy uncle every family has, and to an extent, needs.Hope it's just a warning against the unnecessary flame baiting.
Mr. E @ Jul 29th 2008 4:54PM
I'm certainly not going to shed any tears if he's gone for good. For me, he long ago ceased to give any kind of entertainment value. It had gotten to the point at EngadgetHD where I dreaded Blu-ray news, knowing that he and a few others were going to take a bunch of dumps in the punch bowl for no good reason.
joe @ Jul 29th 2008 3:28PM
This really fills in the blanks.
It make sense why Sony could help win the format war. Ms and Toshiba both has a lot more money than Sony but neither had a movie studio.
The accounting for movies is weird and it is hard to secure financing. In stead of doing a direct pay off Sony pictures offered to take on the financing of future movie projects. This means the studios get to make their films, go to blu ray AND Sony pictures gets a cut. Sony also knows how to make movies they won't be tossing their dollars away like MS or Toshiba might if they tried.
All Toshiba and MS could offer was the marketing and creation of already finished product, where the expenses and risk are low. Sony brought a lot more to the table. With the deals Sony cut even if BD went under the picture studios would be getting a cut of those studios future productions.
JimC @ Jul 29th 2008 4:18PM
Is there official word of his banishment? I did notice all his comments appear to be gone, even from previous threads. It is sad that he cannot get a grip and realize the big hole he was digging. Hopefully now we can have more common sense around here in the comments. Dissent is fine, blatant baiting and trolling is not acceptable blog etiquette. I would like to see him come back eventually if he can stop with the nonsense...
why not the LS2LS7? @ Jul 29th 2008 4:43PM
I'm glad he's gone. He did nothing but spew the same garbage each time. Not even new information, let alone factual information. He only added noise, not signal.
wreckedchevy @ Jul 29th 2008 8:16PM
rejoice over what? now every blu ray article is going to be filled with comments from a bunch of fanbots patting each other on the back. seems to me like it's going to get really lame around here now. as i said before there's a lot of blu fanboys that talk alot more trash than nfinity ever has. can't say i agree with what he's saying but atleast he kept it interesting.
earthling @ Jul 29th 2008 8:22PM
It all came down to Warner, and in Warner it really came down to one influential guy who just before Warner made its decision, accepted a job at Sony. Previous to this he was the clearest and loudest proponent for HD-DVD at Warner. His position.. CTO, Warner Films his name, Chris Cookson.
Chris leaving for Sony sent a clear message to the HD-DVD camp in warner.. game over, sony won.
See: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6516798.html
and
http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/01/warner-bros-goe.html
the announcements are three days apart.
Gus @ Jul 30th 2008 2:22AM
..and an extra $400 million in "advertising" helped I'm sure.
xemumanic @ Jul 29th 2008 10:49PM
Wow, he's really gone. Note that Truth Teller is still here, he wasn't as rabid. That's why he's still here.
Ding Dong the witch is dead!
Gus @ Jul 29th 2008 11:11PM
I agree wreckedchevy, this site is so one eyed that bias isn't a strong enough word.
Sure, some of his ramblings were out there and at times over the top, but he kept it interesting.Wheres any checks and balances now, this site is fast becoming bluray.com where only the blu ray brainwashed are welcome.
JimC @ Jul 29th 2008 11:31PM
Oh Please Gus, you're not a blu-ray fanboy and you manage not hack anyone off to the point of being banned, are you saying Nfinity's complete lack of discernment to the fact of his rubbish he laid down thick on every blu-ray post wasn't so extreme that it couldn't possibly be balanced by all the fanboys here? Come one. There's being a fanboy and then there's being a troll that causes trouble. Stating your opinion is one thing, purposefully falsifying or making outlandishly far fetched claims solely to pick a fight is another. Civil discourse *always* exited left when Nfinity showed up. Always.
Truth Teller is not much better but he occasionally sprinkles his rhetoric with some reason, not often, but enough to keep him from getting utterly flogged.
h0mi @ Jul 30th 2008 12:29AM
LOL you mean you're living like it's Spring 2007.
DVD4ME @ Jul 30th 2008 3:50AM
Blu ray has won nothing, Toshiba bailed out and lost just under1 $billion, sony to date has lost well over 3 $billion and sacrificed it's games console throne in the process, it's 3 years into it's life cycle in a recessive market place and holds...2-3%(?) of the total DVD market.
Blu ray probably wont disappear but is on track to become a niche, and it might in time be a good quality niche, but in could be many many years, if ever, before sony turns a profit.
Blu ray won a minor skirmish with HD DVD, that's all, the real war hasn't even started yet, and only time will tell who, Toshiba or sony, actually came out of this better off.
Harmin C. @ Jul 30th 2008 5:47AM
I was probably one of the biggest HD-DVD backers around... I own an hd-dvd enabled laptop, an hd-a3, and I just bought an LG Bh200. I still buy hd-dvd's from sites like inetvideo or from the clearance bins at futureshop. I have probably 85 hd-dvds versus like 12 blu-rays. But even I accepted defeat and moved on.
Theres being a fanboy and then there is being a troll. I still say I would rather hd-dvd have won the war but it didn't. By buying the BH200 combo, I got it dirt cheap, I am able to have another hd-dvd player but also one of the best blu-ray players on the market right now (after firmware updates). I do not know why people say blu-ray is a niche market or that it doesn't have the marketshare. DVD has been around since like 1995. It was released in japan in 1996 and it's first films released in the US in early 1997 and yet didn't overtake VHS until mid-2003. That is nearly 6 years for it to overtake vhs. Don't get me wrong, DVD offered way more benefits over vhs and you didn't need a new tv/certain cables etc...
However, to say blu-ray is slow and that its been 2 years etc... keep in mind it just won a long-fought 2 year war with a worthy competitor. It hampered adoption and delayed consumers wanting to get in on the hi-def media game. But if you look at the numbers of blu-ray players sold after the war they are huge! Its only going to go up also as more and more players are released, cheap chinese players, old models going for clearance rates etc... Also, promotions such as free blu-ray players are only going to increase as well.
Digital downloads are not here to stop blu-ray anytime soon. There is no infrastructure to support mass downloading of hi-def movies as big as 50 gigs. Video isn't like audio where all you need is a pair of headphones to listen. The reason cd's lost out is because people would rather have 20,000 songs in their pocket as opposed to 20 on a cd. However, the majority of people still watch movies at home. Even those who download movies, still burn them to physical media to watch and most times they are horrible. Why do people think Sony is in charge of blu-ray? It is only a major player in a consortium of companies. I am no fanboy but the future is gonna be blu for the next 5-10 years. After that, who knows?
DVD4ME @ Jul 30th 2008 8:59AM
We agree to disagree, IMO BR is definitely heading down the niche path, but hey, there might be millions of satisfied customers in that niche.
There can NEVER be accurate comparisons made between where BR is and where DVD was, that is delusional thinking at best.
As it's been said before, DVD is good for every TV on the planet and not just HD TVs, BR cant become king until HD TVs are king, and that is still a long way off. Also, the PS2 spurred massive growth in DVD, but it was the dominant games console with a giant share of the market, the PS3 is no where near the same driver the PS2 was, not even close.
Add to that the ridiculously high BR pricing, this after all really is only an extension to DVD, not a new format and BR is going no where fast.
Buy the time HD TVs are a major dominant force and BR can become the dominant DVD player in new sales, it then has to usurp all the current cheap DVD players that millions with HD TVs are happy with anyway, and it's too late.
By the time that all happens, many years from now, downloads or something else is king.
BR, and most likely HD DVD would have as well, does not have a choice, common sense say's it will be a niche.