Will Blu-ray audio discs take off, or flounder aimlessly � la DVD-A / SACD?

by Darren Murph posted Jul 8th 2008 at 7:58AM

For those burned by either DVD-Audio, SACD or HD DVD (or, heaven forbid, any combination of the three), you're probably taking a rather defensive approach to Blu-ray audio. Now that said format is the sole king of high-definition media (in the physical realm, anyway), it's just a matter of time before firms start pushing out full-fledged audio discs while trumpeting the incredulous sound quality. After all, with 50GB of space, you can fit an awful lot of high-resolution audio on there. We've already seen the first BD record released and we already know that Neil Young's entire archive will soon be loosed on the format, but are the puzzle pieces aligned for Blu-ray audio to take off? From our standpoint, we're still hesitant to say yes. With CD players still dominating dashboards and BD drives still a long ways from being commonplace in computers, BD audio is apt to remain a niche good for years to come. Even still, do you think it has what it takes to overcome?

Filed under: Industry, Blu-ray

Tags: audio, blu-ray, blu-ray audio, Blu-rayAudio, bluray, cd, dolby truehd, DolbyTruehd, dts-hd, dts-hd ma, dts-hd master audio, dts-hdma, Dts-hdMasterAudio, dtshd, dvd-a, dvd-audio, lpcm, music, sacd

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Neutral

NoAndThen @ Jul 8th 2008 8:29AM

Absolutely. I don't even listen to cd's in the car anymore, anyhow.. it's all mp3 player/ipod for me. BDA is for high end stereos anyways, which most cars don't have, and even if they do, it's only in stereo (unless BD receivers add 4.1 surround or something).

I will definitely be buying Mr. Young's discography on bluray, I mean, uncompressed audio akin to the studio master? Yes please.

I don't think that DVD-A/SACD had enough of a sound quality difference (although they did sound pretty good) over CD's to take off and warrant purchasing a new deck for them. BD's, however are coming along nicely, especially with PS3's etc.

BDA FTW!!

Neutral

Michael @ Jul 8th 2008 8:31AM

anyone know when the car compainies specifically Acura will have dvd blu-ray audio both my parents cars have dvd audio

Highest Ranked

MadMike @ Jul 8th 2008 8:39AM

No, because the average person is completely unable to tell the difference between 192kbps mp3 and raw uncompressed audio.

The only thing would be have 7.1 channel master audio, and even then at the inevitable $50+ price tag such a product would have, it still would only be a niche.

If midrange BD-2.0 players were to hit the $300 price point and the BD-Audio discs were the same price (or cheaper) than their CD counterparts, then yes it may take off. Maybe even have the BD-Live disc include .mp3 & .m4a versions for use on an iPod. As long as it requires a significant monetary commitment to own and use, It won't take off. Plain and Simple.

Highest Ranked

NoAndThen @ Jul 17th 2008 11:57PM

seriously? If you can't tell the difference between 192kbps compressed mp3 and totally uncompressed audio, you need to get your ears checked/learn how to hear. That's ridiculous.

Have you ever listened to uncompressed audio? Do you even know what you're talking about?

Neutral

dj496 @ Jul 18th 2008 9:50AM

I agree completely with NoAndThen. Provided you have a semi-decent sound system/headphones, anyone should be able to tell difference between itunes quality and studio master quality.

To give my answer to the question - I honestly don't know. If the whole music industry DOESN'T get behind it and promote it, it won't happen. Last time Sony et al. were behind SACD, and Warner et al. were behind DVD-Audio and it didn't work. So many other things went wrong at the same time too though, including the rise of portable mp3 audio, and so it was a disaster.

I reckon they will see if blu-ray succeeds first - but if it doesn't succeed "as much" as DVD did - which I fear is likely (although I hope not) - they may not go ahead with it and HD music downloads will take over instead. They already exist with linn records, itrax and music giants. And frankly I don't care, I'm getting a HTPC as soon as Asus HDAV1.3 comes out.

As a side note, it's a shame that it almost seems it must be a Sony format in order to have any chance of success - DVD-Audio was my choice last time. But blu-ray is the most superior disc format I've ever seen. (Yep, i think I'll always have a love/hate relationship with Sony. :| )

Highly Ranked

MadMike @ Jul 18th 2008 10:22AM

NoAndThen:

I said "The Average Person" not myself. I can most certainly tell the difference. However the average Tom, Dick an Harry with the $250 HTIB won't.

And yes, I do know what I am talking about. It may not be audiophile quality but a Denon 4308, 6 nht classic 3's, nht center 3 and Definitive Supercube I is nothing to laugh at.

Blu-Ray audio will be a niche product only for the "ZOMG, I can hear the difference between Monster audio cables and non-monster audio cables!^!&!^!" Or at least, you think you can.

Highly Ranked

wrique @ Jul 8th 2008 8:44AM

Woohoo! I get to buy Dark Side of the Moon one more time! (Vinyl, vinyl again - wore out the first one, CD, Original Master Recording CD, SACD).

Neutral

Dan Davis @ Jul 8th 2008 11:00AM

I'll bitch and moan about having to buy the Godfather Trilogy on every new format that comes out, but I will NEVER complain about getting to buy DSOTM once again!

I love it when I have the opportunity to turn people onto this album (can you believe there are still some people out there who've never heard it?!)...

Neutral

DrXym @ Jul 8th 2008 8:48AM

It really depends how BD-Audio is implemented in devices. Existing BD players may not be sufficiently intuitive that you can play a disc without the TV turned on which is a major impediment. Assuming players do appear which have decent built-in displays I don't see why there won't be a market for audio. But as DVD-Audio and SACD demonstrate it probably isn't a very large one, restricted to jazz & classical music mostly.

Neutral

MadMike @ Jul 8th 2008 9:49AM

DrXym,
What about adding visual features to augment the music. My PS3 has a very nice visualization of earth from space when you play CD's and even music from DLNA servers. Even if I "just" want the music, I find it quite interesting to have on.

BD-Audio could do something similar.

Highly Ranked

squiggleslash @ Jul 8th 2008 8:49AM

Blu-ray audio isn't just coming after the horse has bolted, it's coming along after the entire barn has been removed, paved over, had a mall built on it, and a memorial built for the horse who died of old age fifty years previously.

Audio has already gone online. DVD-Audio and SACD failed because they arrived at precisely the time when the entire way people were expecting to get audio was changing, and the fact both formats weren't rippable - the sole advantage of CDs - meant neither were capable of being integrated into a 21st Century audio system.

The same fate seems likely to befall Blu-ray video, and for much the same reasons. As I've said before, if Blu-ray is to actually stand a chance rather than being that interesting technology that enjoyed limited success a'la Laserdisc, it needs to brought up to date recognizing the fact that online downloads are the future. That means sensible - or non-existent - DRM, BD+ being the exact opposite. It means compulsory managed copy. It means an end to region encoding. And it means BD players need to look beyond the hard media and be just as happy downloading content - with hard media being the back-up format (literally - put a burner in every player, for crying out loud) - as it is using discs.

Without those changes, the near future is that X-Box marketplace, Sony's online equivalent (I forget the name), Netflix's STB, Apples AppleTV, and Amazon's TiVo integrated download system are likely to be more attractive "DVD replacements" than Blu-ray is or ever can be. Yes, some of those are SD at the moment, but remember VHS routed Laserdisc - if the quality is "good enough", and DVD-quality 480i60/p24 looks astonishingly good when done properly, consumers will go for the system they find more convenient, not the one that's supposedly higher quality.

(I would dearly like Blu-ray to get the changes that make it viable BTW, I think one of issues here is that BD fanbois tend to be so defensive they refuse to criticize or even acknowledge the problems with the "features" of the format that will ultimately destroy it, and the studios and manufacturers still have a hard time getting their heads around the idea that a format that doesn't do what consumers want is going to fail, no matter how much backing it has. Blu-ray can be an excellent format, particularly with the Profile 2 features, but it needs BD+ removed, mandatory managed copy implemented at every level, and a nod to the future with a standardized over-the-Internet download and store system. None of these are difficult to do except in that the will isn't there. And the longer they prevaricate, the longer it'll be before we have a viable HD movie delivery system that works for everyone.)

Neutral

J.Goodwin @ Jul 8th 2008 8:53AM

At least the audio that's included in the basic format definition is up to snuff, 192/24 in a lossless format just like DVD-A, but multichannel.

The down side is that current players may not necessarily actually support that, at least not in the context of an actual ability to output that sort of stream to the kind of equipment that you'd have hooked up today.

The up side is that they will, and they're not going to have to be separately branded to do it, and current players will just down mix to whatever they are capable of outputting.

I think that these factors already give it a leg up on both SACD and DVD-A. It'll be good to have master quality audio back on the market.

Highly Ranked

XDragon @ Jul 8th 2008 9:14AM

For the most part I'd say Blu-Ray won't do well for audio discs but if they are smart about it, for example, they release all song by 1 artist on 1 disc as some sort of anthology, then there is a bit of potential but I'm sure such a disc would be expensive,

Neutral

Andy @ Jul 8th 2008 9:19AM

First of all, and most important, I thought Neil Young loathed digital. He once was quoted saying that "digital is evil". I really don't care what he thinks either way, I'm just surprised.

I'd have to hear it, but still, it's hard for me to say if BD-Audio would take off or not. I never got into SACD because:

1) i don't listen to music in the living room
2) I don't have a dvd player in my car

Admittedly, though, I did purchase a couple of CDs in the past three years that included an audio DVD. Cant say that I listened to them.

With that it mind, I think it will take a while for the format to take off outside of the hardcore audio-phile club...if it even does that. The players need to be cheaper....more portable..and they really need to offer something more than just audio.

Maybe visual content on the DVD...interactive content...how about a live studio performance of the music (a la Radiohead's recent Basement Sessions)? Metallica's St Anger album came with a CD and an Audio DVD of the same tracks but if I recall correctly, they were performed live in the studio. Being able to see that performance would be great. Pushing it further and having complete control of the camera angles would be ACE.

Highest Ranked

DEEZNUTZ @ Jul 8th 2008 9:47AM

No way will it take-off. There's simply no $$ in it anymore. The masses don't appreciate good music or quality recordings. They just want the latest chart hit on their IPODS so they can listen to it repeatedly for 3 weeks straight, then move on to the next pop track.
It will always remain a niche product, which would be priced accordingly.
It's a shame though.

Highly Ranked

Jake @ Jul 8th 2008 9:02PM

The world would be so much cooler if you weren't 100% correct in your analysis. You are right on the money; people can't care about high resolution audio until they care about music. The entire music industry is working day/night to dumb down the audience, since a dumb audience buys whatever dreck gets shoveled at them.

Highest Ranked

Bill @ Jul 8th 2008 9:48AM

This will die a slow death just like the other high def audio formats. I wish this wasn't the case, but think about it. 99% of people think that regular CD's sound great. Most don't have the speakers to enjoy any better anyway. And a whole bunch of us have switched to MP3's out of convenience, and they don't even sound as good as CD's!! So why would anyone, other than an extremely small niche crowd, spend the cash and go through the hassle of converting their equipment to listen to this? I bet most record companies already know this, so the selection will be weak which will only speed the failure of this format.

I have an Acura TL with DVD-A, and it's pretty much useless to me, because I can't get any tunes I like for it.

Neutral

WebDev511 @ Jul 8th 2008 10:20AM

No, Blu-Ray for audio is a no go. Blu-Ray for full concerts with jaw dropping picture and lossless audio has a chance. If you need proof, check out the Nine Inch Nails BD (or HD DVD) the sound is just AMAZING. Same goes for symphony.

Lossless audio makes it worth while, but BD for audio only is a tough sell when most digital music players support at least one lossless audio codec. Throw in the fact that while still larger than lossy files, downloading lossless audio isn't nearly as painful as doing so with high bit rate HD video with lossless soundtracks.

Neutral

Jake @ Jul 8th 2008 9:08PM

That NIN concert is the most insane thing I've ever seen in my life, and one of my go-to disks! BD concert disks have bright future, but I'm not sure how many artists have the vision and the techo/audiophile audience to make the whole concept work. I did not spring for Ghosts on BD but it was nice to see that Trent offered it to those willing to pay. BTW, my decision not to get it was based on not being completely bowled over by Ghosts as an album, not any kind of criticism of the technology.

Neutral

superklye @ Jul 8th 2008 11:22AM

Sigh.

Nine Inch Nails - Halo 26: Ghosts I-IV was the first album released on Blu-ray. Sure, it was only available in the $75 limited and $300 deluxe editions, but regardless...it was out first. And slmost a month before the one linked in the article.

Neutral

Mr. E @ Jul 8th 2008 11:24AM

I'm not personally interested in audio-only Blu-ray releases, but for the sake of all the audiophiles out there, I hope that that Blu-ray audio can ride the coattails of Blu-ray video's success to become established in the marketplace, even as a small niche. I know there are a lot of people who want their music in the best quality possible, so if there's a way for them to get it, I'm all for that.

Neutral

usiel @ Jul 8th 2008 11:38AM

I support blu-ray as a video format but I don't see much future for blu-ray audio only at least not for wide stream success...Niche sure like the SACD/DVD-AUDIO peeps. With portable mp3 players being #1 atm lossy formats seem to be acceptable at the moment.

Neutral

jitty @ Jul 8th 2008 12:01PM

Wow, you could fit over 70 normal CD's on a dual layer blu-ray. Or you could fit 8 hours of uncompressed 7.1 surround sound audio at 14mbps!!!!

Neutral

burndive @ Jul 8th 2008 1:40PM

Meh.

Neutral

Harmin C. @ Jul 8th 2008 1:42PM

No it will not catch on... Audio is and always will be different from video. Most people will find no difference in a 192 kbps track to raw uncompressed lossless tracks. Not to mention that portability of audio is what led to the downfall of the physical format for music. Most people prefer having 10,000 songs in their pocket as opposed to 20 songs on a cd.

Video is different because people can notice the difference and most will always prefer to watch on their televisions as opposed to their laptops or whatever.

The only market I see for blu-ray audio will be collections of discs such as greatest hits or Hi-Def live concert series or music videos.

Neutral

J.Goodwin @ Jul 8th 2008 4:45PM

Yes, and most people find no difference between upconverted DVD and actual high definition optical media (though Gangs of New York is no help).

I'm being sarcastic and literally rolling my eyes as I type this, BTW.

Neutral

JET @ Jul 8th 2008 4:17PM

No, it won't catch on. The portability issue that others here have mentioned is key. That, and most audiophiles just like vinyl better. Jump over the Quadraphonic Forums sometime and check the sniping between the vinyl and surround stalwarts - they put Sony and Microsoft fanboys to shame!

That said, please note that SACD and DVD-A have not died. There are quite a few releases trickling out for both formats, and they have been very good to smaller bands. No Man just sold several thousand copies of their new album in a DVD-A/CD double pack, and Bass Communion sold out of 1000 copies of their new DVD-A/CD combo in a day. There also still a lot of jazz & classical SACDs being released as well. The formats are viable, just not for albums that need to make a sales splash.

BD-A will receive support, but not mainstream support.

JET

Neutral

why not the LS2LS7? @ Jul 8th 2008 5:21PM

Flounder aimlessly. All this stuff is esoteric anyway, and the higher quality cannot even be delivered (by licensing contract) over non-encrypted links.

This stuff was small-time anyway, and the DRM will just be the coup de gras.

Neutral

h0mi @ Jul 8th 2008 11:48PM

SACD and DVD audio failed for a number of reasons... probably the biggest was that consumers were still waiting for those cheaper CDs that never arrived (premise being that producing/distributing music on CDs was cheaper than on tape or LP so it would eventually become cheaper for consumers. But we never saw those $7 album prices again) and DVD-Audio/SACD gave music studios the chance to charge $20 or so for an album. For the most part and for most consumers, CD was "good enough" and the movie to digital distribution is more for convenience than anything else.

Neutral

David @ Jul 10th 2008 11:02AM

The trend at the moment is for background listening of music rather than listening to music as the sole activity. Combine with this the loudness wars and MP3s reducing fidelity and you have the masses unable to discern good sound quality or just apathetic about sound quality and music in general.

Blu-Ray has potential as a music format, but to succeed it will need to draw in the apathetic as well as audiophiles (who may have already invested in DVD-A and/or SACD) and it'll need to come in at a far more attractive price point than the current crop of BR players.

To satisfy the audiophiles you need to have great stereo and multi-channel sound and use volume levelling to eliminate "the loudness wars". You'd also need to support audio only players.

Then to draw in the rest you need to add integrated bonus features (including internet connected content) to make it an obvious functional improvement over CD, DVD-A and SACD. Examples of bonus features are alternate song versions, music videos, interviews, news, tour dates, photos, artwork, lyrics, etc. You also need reasonable pricing of playback hardware.

One other aspect is that any new audio format should integrate iPod/MP3 player direct ripping support. If a format is not ripable then it will really struggle to gain traction (notice how nearly all SACDs are now hybrid SACDs).

Of course none of this would guarantee BD-A success, but it would give the format a fighting chance. In any event BD-A is likely to be one of the last physical music formats.

Highly Ranked

Don @ Jul 15th 2008 1:33PM

Audio discs are dead. It's all going to be downloads in the future. Personally I'm still buying CDs, but only because I can't buy a lot of lossless audio online. When iTunes starts offering new albums in Apple Lossless, or even better, in 24-bit/96KHz or higher (and surround mixes), then I'll never buy another disc again. Hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later.

Neutral

Justin @ Jul 17th 2008 5:20PM

Unless it's downloadable or can be put in my LP player, no it won't take off.

Neutral

Steven H. Taylor @ Jul 23rd 2008 10:18AM

It will surely not take off the way Audio CD did -- the difference between Super Audio CD and DVD-Audio on the one hand and 'BD Audio' on the other is too small to warrant any expecations. THe mass consumer market did not turn down SACD or DVDA because they demanded 7.1 instead of 5.1, or 196 kHz instead 92.

It need not flounder aimlessly however, because SACD hasn't either. It's found its audiophile niche, where it enjoys a loyal following, catered to by independent record labels with a steady flow of some 60 new titles per month, unabated for the last three, four years.

Neutral

mitchelljd @ Jul 24th 2008 5:37PM

i would love to try blu-ray audio out. it has the potential for the best sound. and.... tons of video hd content and more on the same disc.

could be the perfect format.

Neutral

Will @ Aug 19th 2008 3:14PM

I expect that as the DVD format loses ground to BluRay, the DVD factories will entice the music industry to start releasing music on DVD discs.

So, the CD will fall to audio-on-DVD, as DVD falls to BluRay.

The reason why record companies will prefer to put music on DVD rather than BluRay is most customers already have CD/DVD drives in their computers, so there's more universal appeal.

Neutral

Ubertrout @ Sep 5th 2008 11:07AM

Another no vote for this new format - conceptually it's a cool idea, but in practice it will just be another format that's barely supported with technology or releases.

I'm a big classical guy, and I have one DVD-Audio and two SACD players (laugh away, thankfully they cost $250 in total - the Oppo 980H over HDMI and Sony SCD-CE595 over analog - and I have the LG BH200, so I guess my system is just a cornucopia of dead formats). The classical market is very well served with SACD releases (even in the budget category via Naxos), and I think the classical market has pretty much settled on SACD as its high-def format. There are DVD-A releases also, but they're rarer, and I think the release of the Living Stero and Living Presence catalogs on SACD at a genuine midprice level (~$12) has given SACD the edge.

That said, I don't think anyone beyond the bleeding edge of audiophiles (by which I mean those nerdier than I) will go for Blu-Ray Audio. In the more general market people seem entranced not only by 128k MP3s, but even by music on their phones and ringtones. I don't get it, but the demographics speak for themselves. Further, the classical market seems fairly sated with its current high-def options, and I think many classical fans don't like their audio equipment being mixed with their video equipment.

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