DVD Download DL logo sparks wonder over Toshiba's super-resolution DVD player

by Darren Murph, posted Jul 1st 2008 at 5:33PM

We keep hoping that Toshiba will come to its senses and just let this whole thing die, but no. Apparently insistent on keeping the last-generation format alive for as long as it possibly can, it seems the outfit is getting ever-closer to a super-resolution DVD player that would reportedly upscale DVD content like nothing we've ever seen. The latest tidbit in this woefully depressing saga is a newly approved DVD Download DL logo, which was given the final thumbs-up by the DVD Forum Steering Committee last month. In reality, no one outside of Tosh's headquarters has any idea if this development is indeed intrinsically related, but at this point, we wouldn't be shocked one bit to find that it was. Then again, the June 11th meeting also saw specifications for CH-DVD approved, so here's to hoping Toshiba isn't jumping on that ~~bandwagon~~ fiery wreck.

[Via TG Daily]

Read - DVD Forum approval
Read - Discussion / rumors

Filed under: Industry, Blu-ray, HD DVD, Other formats, Players, Toshiba

Tags: dvd, dvd download dl, dvd player, DvdDownloadDl, DvdPlayer, hd dvd, HdDvd, logo, rumor, spursengine, super-resolution, toshiba

Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)

Highest Ranked

EQC @ Jul 1st 2008 5:45PM

better upscaling of DVD's isn't a bad thing...

just put it in BR players so people can keep playing their old DVD's in near-HD and get new movies in true HD/BR.

It's just cruel to expect people to re-buy movies they already have...

Neutral

HD4Eva @ Jul 4th 2008 12:08AM

I hear Toshiba has nearly completed the new upscaling "High Definition Betamax System" Which will be officially released as Toshiba's BS-HD

Neutral

Truth Teller @ Jul 1st 2008 5:51PM

The truth is that only some folks want to see the last format die Darren, you and the PS3/Blu-ray fanboys.

Everyone else knows that SD DVD will remain the dominant video format for a very long time to come yet, no matter what else happens.

It's totally laughable to imagine that neither Toshiba nor any of the others will bring out new and better upscaling/super upconversion SD DVD players......

.......just as it's utterly laughable to imagine the public isn't still buying them or won't want to keep on buying them for a long time yet.

The comparative pricing alone guarantees they will.

Tell me, did you rail against Oppo's new DVD player?
Do you complain that all the BDA CE corps still make upscaling SD DVD players?

I'm betting not and that these anti Toshiba comments are just a ridiculous extension of the old format war.

Sorry guys but no, the field is not being left clear for Blu-ray.
Get over it.

Neutral

Mr. E @ Jul 1st 2008 6:56PM

There was no need to "rail against" Oppo's new DVD player, since it was also announced that it would be their last DVD-only player, and they are in fact working on Blu-ray players from now on, just like the rest of the industry (minus Toshiba).

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/11/oppos-dv-983h-upconverting-dvd-deck-marks-the-end-of-the-line/

Toshiba's problem is not in pursuing upconversion, it's in their insistence on staying in the past. I welcome any kind of upconversion added to a Blu-ray player, but to expect people to be shopping for a DVD-only player during the 2008 holiday season is just not a smart business move.

Highly Ranked

Gus @ Jul 1st 2008 8:43PM

Mr E, so Toshiba are fools for then being the only major player in the dominant DVD market while the rest of the CE companies fight over a few blu ray niche market crumbs!
Get over it, Toshiba has licensed the tech to Sharp and I'm guessing others will follow, there is still a lot more money to be made on the present market with DVD then blu ray, and it will be many years IF EVER before blu ray becomes the dominant force.
I cant believe some of the idiotic comments calling for Toshiba to abandon this tech and join blu ray, I bet they make a heap more money out of this then any CE company will make out of blu ray.

Interesting that this site doesn't bother to report on sonys 3 $billion dollar loss directly related to blu ray, apparently some how that's not HD news, but any time Toshiba and DVD gets mentioned, Darren can't help himself, he has to "sink the slipper" and it has nothing to do with HD and shouldn't even be reported on this site.................................................. It smacks of true blu fanboy paranoia !

Neutral

EQC @ Jul 2nd 2008 2:44AM

Gus:

perhaps if you provided a link to the story about Sony losing $3 billion on BR, it would be easier for engadget to post about it?

Highly Ranked

Truth Teller @ Jul 2nd 2008 5:37AM

Actually ECQ it's $3.3 Billion
(which makes Toshiba's $1 billion HD DVD loss look small).

They admitted it themselves.

It helps explain why they are now hedging their bets with a PS3 download service & a Bravia TV downloading service.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/PS3-low-price-costs-Sony-over-3-billion-in-loses.html

Neutral

John @ Jul 1st 2008 5:54PM

DVD DL is DVD- Download. It has nothing to do with upscaling. Geeze.

Neutral

WebDev511 @ Jul 1st 2008 6:08PM

It was referred to in the second sentence of the blog post. You DID read the post didn't you?

Neutral

Truth Teller @ Jul 1st 2008 6:09PM

Well hang on just a minute there.

It may be that there is a downloading element to the new Toshiba Super Upscaling DVD player.

We already saw something similar with the new Kaleidescape system.

Unfortunately it'll be awhile until all the details are revealed.

Nevertheless it's ludicrous for certain writers to be slamming a new 'system' that they haven't even seen just cos they have an obvious h@rd-on for Blu-ray.

Highest Ranked

DVD4ME @ Jul 1st 2008 6:05PM

Darren, for Gods sake man, are you deliberately flaming with your comments to spark some traffic flow here, or are you really that biased that anything related to this subject automatically gets slammed by you!
How about having a look at the finished product before you make such damning and bigoted statements, there is probably millions of people around the globe that will find this tech exactly what they want, not everyone has had their brains washed by the BDA !

Neutral

Jake @ Jul 1st 2008 6:20PM

This was a cool idea 18 months ago, but its just not relevant now. This would matter;

1) If Blu-Ray players didn't upconvert at all.

2) $75 DVD players didn't upconvert at all.

3) Entry level Blu Ray players were still $600 instead of $400 (and falling)

Money still being spent on DVD hardware is based on factors like price, brand, and convenience...not quality. That said, certain big box retailers are not above rigging up a bogus demo to magnify the differences between products. I can't wait to see one of these Toshiba DVD players connected over HDMI (Monster Cable of course) whipping the crap out of a Pioneer Elite BD player connected through composite cable to an identical but bad badly calibrated monitor.

The CE industry is SWEET!

Highest Ranked

Alex @ Jul 1st 2008 6:50PM

sorry but it is completely relevant if they release a $100 box that works as claimed. BluRay will still have 2 years before it gets down to that price.

Neutral

squiggleslash @ Jul 4th 2008 9:08AM

Your post about upconverting would have been relevant if this technology had anything to do with upconverting. The fact Engadget is still pushing its owners Blu-ray agenda doesn't mean that the technology that's the subject of this blog post has anything at all to do with upscaling.

This is about downloadable DVDs.

Neutral

mntwister @ Jul 1st 2008 6:21PM

Oh please Truthteller, talk about wanting to see a format die? I invite anyone to read all your posts for the previous 3 months. Now that's wanting to see a format die like it's the only mission in life. Please look to yourself before accusing others.

Neutral

Jake @ Jul 1st 2008 6:26PM

What I really need is some kind of sooperr-dooper VHS-to-HD upconversion to tide me over until Echo Bridge releases the all time greatest sci-fi B-movie "Damnation Alley" on DVD or Blu-Ray.

Neutral

JC @ Jul 1st 2008 11:22PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-VHS

Neutral

minimalist @ Jul 1st 2008 7:29PM

You can apply all the fancy new algorithms you want to but once resolution is gone its gone.

Anybody who's ever worked with Photoshop knows that if you start with low resolution crap you can only make it look so good. A postage stamp sized photo snagged off of a google image search can only look so good when its blown up to 4 times its original size. All the fancy software filters in the world can't add back detail that's not there to begin with.

Why people still think that technology can make it all better, as if there will be some kind of upscaling wondercure that will make SD actually look like HD, is beyond me.

Upscaling is what it is. Its as good as DVD is going to get and its fine as a placeholder but its not the future.

Highest Ranked

EQC @ Jul 1st 2008 8:06PM

I think you missed a bit of info on this technology...

Yes, normal upscaling takes each individual frame and stretches it out using some algorithms...it cannot add extra resolution, it can only make low res look less jagged on a bigger high-res screen. Photoshop, as you mentioned, is only for still images...and works the same way as "regular" upscaling...

But this "superscaling" / SpursEngine stuff is more advanced. It uses multiple frames before/after a given frame to do the upscaling. So, it analyzes slight variations from frame to frame and can effectively extract some of the "lost" resolution.

So, while some detail might be smaller than a 480p pixel, hints of that detail might be detectable when multiple frames are analyzed...and the "lost" detail may be reconstructable to a certain extent.

I can see where this has great potential in the right circumstances, but also where it would have limitations too. It's not perfect, but it makes sense that it could result in a better image than the best still-image (or single-frame) upscaling.

Highest Ranked

James @ Jul 1st 2008 7:36PM

More Toshiba bashing. For the love of god, give it up.

No wonder why so many people hate Blu-ray fanbois

Highest Ranked

burndive @ Jul 1st 2008 8:23PM

Wait... is CH-DVD going to fail? I thought the Chinese government wanted to create a cheap HD format, and so they came up with that.

If there's one thing that's hard to stop, it's government bureaucracy, especially in China, where the government is huge and repressive.

What's stopping China from declaring that all Chinese HD will be CH-DVD? I imagine Toshiba's HD DVD know-how will come in handy when it comes to making the players.

One of the design goals of CH-DVD is to fight piracy. Won't it make piracy harder in China if they use a completely different format and protections than the rest of the world?

As to the continual poo-poing of Toshiba's upscaling efforts: what does upscaling that have to do with this new label?

I'm not getting rid of my DVD collection (for one thing, most DVDs aren't worth the trouble of selling). When I buy a Blu-ray player (in addition to the one in my HTPC) I'm going to want one with good upscaling.

Toshiba is late to the Blu-ray market. They started looking at it in January of this year. They can't announce Blu-ray products, because they aren't done designing them. In the meantime, if they establish themselves as the best upscalers on the market, they have a leg up on the other guys when they launch, even if it doesn't turn out to be that impressive once it arrives: we will all notice the extra feature.

Thanks to the folks at Engadget HD, they have all the publicity they could want on this point for the hard-core HD fans.

Seriously, how many of you who read this would tend to prefer Toshiba Blu-ray player over other brands because of this feature?

Neutral

why not the LS2LS7? @ Jul 2nd 2008 2:37AM

It's tough to tell what will happen with CH-DVD. Sometimes this stuff takes off and sometimes it doesn't. For example, the Chinese decided they wanted their own variant of WiFi (their own encryption, presumably one they could snoop easier). They said you couldn't legally sell WiFi in China without this.

And so there isn't WiFi in China. Well, officially. China's variant never took off, instead people just use WiFi illegally or use nothing at all.

CH-DVD could be enormous, it could take the entire Chinese market over. Or it also could flop badly and BluRay will win anyway. I'm not sure it's possible to tell right now.

Upconversion is a lie. I had the CEO of Anchor Bay (DVDO) try to sell it to me (well, the company I work for) personally with demos of their best stuff (which is some of the best in the in business, it's what Oppo uses) and it was nearly completely useless. It never created any real additional information from DVDs.

Yeah, yeah, Toshiba's SUC is different. But it's not. If you have a video with a slow pan over a still scene, yes, you might be able to extract additional resolution from the panning. But ONLY IN THE PANNING DIRECTION! And most movies just aren't shot that way. 24fps is almost criminally low, and so most motion produces massive blur that cannot be removed, even with hi-res imaging like BluRay, let alone by trying to use math to take it away the motion blur, find the detail and then add more resolution.

Highly Ranked

mntwister @ Jul 1st 2008 8:39PM

While there are fanboys around for Blu-ray it's true, but-it sure looks like alot of Toshiba fanboys are still alive and kicking-hehe:-).

If the Toshiba upscaler does a much better job at upscaling, and I see it with my own eyes, I'd definitely buy one for my large dvd collection and sell off my Denon 3930 dvd player if it upscales better than the Realta HQV processor. But that won't stop me from replacing many of my movies in true high def versions. You can probably have good quality sex with a blow-up doll but there's nothing like the real thing. hehe.

Highly Ranked

Gus @ Jul 1st 2008 8:57PM

Lol, I'll pay that one.

Highest Ranked

Jimmy @ Jul 1st 2008 10:33PM

I do not get the hate on this technology. I think the software behind this is brilliant. There has been similar technology used for a long time in the scientific community to get more detail on a single image. This has been especially true in the remote sensing industry.

What I would like to see happen is for this technology to be applied to true HD sources and fed into a 4k projector system. If a blu-ray player had this ability it would be so very nice.

Neutral

Gus @ Jul 1st 2008 10:38PM

Maybe thats Toshibas next move??

Neutral

phanbouy @ Jul 1st 2008 11:10PM

DVDs are perfect for ripping and transcoding to x264; deinterlaced and all. Typically a ~1-GB file will hold an anamorphically cropped (you can always zoom it full screen unlike a lot of DVD transfers of older movies) .mkv movie file that looks just as good as the source. Once you get used to it, it takes about 2-3 minutes to set everything up, and about a half hour to an hour of processing time (depending on CPU speed).

Personally, I don't have a TV, but even if I did, I'd be hooking up a HTPC to it; DVDs are dead. D-E-D dead (to me, anyway). Instant-play and no scratchable media FTW.

Neutral

JC @ Jul 1st 2008 11:27PM

I just spit Sprite out of my nose.

Neutral

John @ Jul 2nd 2008 12:20AM

Why do you guys keep talking about upscaling? DVD DL is not tied to it. It's just Darren's failed attempt at connecting the two. DVD Download is like a DVD- disc, in that it also uses pre-pits. It's just going to be a new recordable format that allows some things the current ones don't/won't.

Highly Ranked

why not the LS2LS7? @ Jul 2nd 2008 2:39AM

This is the same thing Toshiba has been bandying about as "DVD 2.0". It's not related to SUC (super up conversion), it just adds internet access to DVD on DVD players that support it.

Of course, DVD has had some features like this for some time and they never took off. And the similiar features on HD-DVD and BluRay are used to sell you T-Shirts and crap.

I don't think DVD DL will make a big impact on anything in this market.

Neutral

mntwister @ Jul 2nd 2008 10:54AM

The thing is, having internet connect for dvd is really useless because the studios are not going to start adding internet features to dvd when they are all pushing a newer format to take over. Perhaps this has to do with downloading movies and burning them on the player? That would be my guess....oy vey more compressed entertainment.

Neutral

Deadmeat @ Jul 2nd 2008 4:02PM

This is part of Toshiba's one-two punch against Blu-Ray.

The first punch is Super Upconversion player, which enhances all existing DVDs to 960p native, but requires a new standalone player to take advantage of it.

The second punch is DVD Download, which permits downloading of extra features, even the high-def version of main feature, complete with all of HD-DVD interactivity. This feature can be utilized by Xbox 360s, of which 20 million units are already sold.

DVD Download's Interactivity is HDi already proven in HD-DVD and will work out of box on the first day, unlike broken BD-Live.

Neutral

burndive @ Jul 3rd 2008 4:28PM

Actually, having read the DVD Forum's document on this spec, it looks like it's a movie that you download yourself on your own computer and burn to a DVD DL disc (there is also the kiosk option/possibility).

A DVD DL can only hold 85 minutes of 1080p, so for full-length features, it would have to be lesser-quality. My guess is that it's just downloadable SD DVDs with instant gratification + permanent physical copy.

The extra DRM is there to assure studios that people won't be able to rip them back.

I don't think this kind of thing would take off, though, since you have to buy another player compatible with the DRM (or install one on your computer), but for porn, the privacy and selection-without-stock attributes of this distribution model would be of benefit to the consumer.

Highly Ranked

Gus @ Jul 3rd 2008 10:27PM

Sounds a great idea if you can download movies straight to your DVD player, and if you keep a copy, burn it and then watch it at the new 960p native upscaled to 1080p, brilliant.

Highly Ranked

squiggleslash @ Jul 4th 2008 9:05AM

Yet another bizarre attack on Toshiba. The DVD Forum announces download-and-burn DVDs, and this is evidence that Toshiba is evil for trying to make a better upscaler... how?

Seriously Mr Murph: You need a new job. Working at Warner's Engadget and having to push this "Anything that isn't Blu-ray needs to be ridiculed" agenda is making you look like a complete imbecile to everyone except the gaggle of hardened Sony-fanbois that frequent this site.

Download and burn is an awesome idea. Perhaps rather than ridiculing Toshiba and trying to tie it to upscaling, you could have devoted a little time to explaining what the technology is, how it works, what the limitations are, and perhaps even see what kind of work the industry will do to adopt it. That would have made for an informative article.

I look forward to your next piece, on how oil prices are high because Toshiba hasn't produced a Blu-ray player, or how the war in Iraq is because Toshiba hasn't produced a Blu-ray player, or how the Burma disaster was because Toshiba hadn't produced a Blu-ray player.

Highly Ranked

squiggleslash @ Jul 5th 2008 12:10PM

Anyone who's interested in what this is might do well to visit this thread here:

http://www.amazon.com/tag/hd%20dvd/forum?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1LBDSMFH3XYPS&cdThread=Tx3TKJOVC8K0OKX

Quoting Mark Goyette:

"I read through the technical aspects of the formatting and what it is for is a new distribution method. The new format is a read only consumer format which will give production and distribution companies the rights to distribute directly through the retail chain instead of a DVD publishing manufacture. How it works is the company provides the DVD iso for the distribution process and participating retail chains can burn it using special DVD Download/DL burners and DVDs on the request of a consumer, this format offers both buying and renting options.

"Buying is fairly strait forward, you go into your local DVD seller that offers the format and you request a movie that is offered in the format and the burn you off a copy, ready in about 5-10 minutes. The renting one all depends on the discs being manufactured, currently companies are looking at the Time To Die (TTD) chemically treated discs for this purpose, only question is will they be compatible and will it effect the life span of the disc, but what this will allow is a rental company to carry only the iso file for movies and not take up a ton of shelf space carrying copy after copy of the same disc."

Note: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH UPCONVERSION. Engadget's Darren Murph and his "editor" has, from what I can figure out, deliberately and avoidably lied about what this is in order to bash Toshiba. There is nothing bad about this technology, it's something people have been talking about for a while, and now the DVD Forum is doing what it's promised to do.

Neutral

John Willaford @ Jul 28th 2008 9:24AM

On the subject of CH-DVD. I figure they will just crack bluray, take the tech supplied by China, and reencode them into CH-DVDs and sell them such that most end users can't pirate their pirated movies.
I wonder if they will bother to remove the BluRay promotional content from each BluRay disc? It will at least curb some theft of bluray discs to be diverted to china. Oh yeah, wait, Funai makes Magnavox, Sylvania and Insignia's boxes for them, scratch that, business as usual.

Steve Harris hints at the future of the reborn EGM Micro-transaction model a possibility for WoW The first video of N+ dev's 'Robotology'	RunPee goes mobile with a new iPhone app Flickr2Twitter: Twitpic killer? Did OpenBitTorrent just become The Pirate Bay 2.0?
Give us your tired, your poor, your best iPhone fireworks pix and videos New MBP offers top display quality, but some beg to differ Get Astraware Solitaire and some free fireworks	The week in preview: Focus returns to earnings: Alcoa, Chevron, Family Dollar The Iraq War was fought for oil -- now we have none of it Earnings highlights: General Mills, Apollo Group, H&R Block, Sealy ...
Celebrate July 4th with adorable Kodu fireworks Gears of War 2's Title Update 4 now live Metanet: N+ next week's Xbox Live deal	EDITORIAL: Attention Wall Street Journal - Ford does not use Toyota's hybrid system! MotoGP: Autoblog tours the Yamaha garages REPORT: Toyota plans to manufacture up to 30,000 plug-in hybrids in 2012
Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood DLC coming to PC Epic's "CliffyB" found id's acquisition "shocking" Rumor: Windows 7 going gold next week?	McNair Investigation Focuses on Woman Jeff Fisher: 'This Is a Tragic Moment for Anyone Who Knew and Loved Steve' Sahel Kazemi Identified as Second Victim In McNair Tragedy