Funai's NB500 Blu-ray player sliding into Wal-Mart for $298
[Thanks, Fernando]
[Thanks, Fernando]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
travis.Taylor @ May 12th 2008 1:45PM
Ugh, I wish Blu Ray Player prices would drop already. It seems that the format war ended the question as to which to buy, and also ended the sweet deals that surrounded both formats (5 free movies for example)...
I'm not man enough to drop $300.00 bones on a sketchy one, though. I would rather fork out the extra $100.00 and hit up the PS3.
TrentD @ May 12th 2008 1:49PM
A name-brand BD player had better break the $200 barrier by Christmas, or Blu-ray is going to start down the path to "stillborn".
DrXym @ May 12th 2008 2:27PM
Don't be silly. DVD players took years to reach the $200 price point and it will be no difference for Blu Ray. I do expect you will see $300 brand name players by Christmas however and a few no names for much less than that.
WiFiSpy @ May 12th 2008 3:59PM
I paid $278 for a Samsung BD-P1400 LAST Christmas......
Mr. E @ May 12th 2008 4:05PM
I'm not sure how you figure that timeframe. I can't imagine a consumer making a decision to give up on Blu-ray forever, just because players are $100 more than they'd like at the end of this year. Just like with any product, people will buy when the price is right, whenever that happens to be.
But regardless of that, I'm absolutely certain that there will be players at $200 and under this holiday season. They may not be the latest & greatest Profile 2.0 players, but if someone isn't worried about interactive extras, there will definitely be many bargains to be found.
Killer @ May 12th 2008 4:09PM
@DrXym
Understand where you're coming from but there is a difference between when DVD started out and Blu-ray has. DVD didnt have a recession to deal with, so it was just bad luck timing for Blu-ray. When gas is 4 dollars and food is high cost, I don't see the normal families switching over quickly.
DrXym @ May 12th 2008 6:08PM
I think the economic climate is definitely a consideration and must impact prices and sales. However HD is taking over so I see no reason in general that Blu Ray has anything to worry about. It is a no-brainer that if you upgrade to HD that you will want HD content to play on it. Blu Ray fits the bill perfectly and is backwards compatible too.
Price is absolutely a hurdle but it was with DVD too. Prices drop over time and I expect we'll see the prices drop substantially in the second half of this year. The promotions and bargains will kick in and then we'll see what way things go. I expect starting with June we're going to see a lot more mainstream prominence of the format.
Gus @ May 12th 2008 7:56PM
Here we go again with the ridiculous comparisons to DVD, aaarrrrrghhhhh!
DrXym @ May 13th 2008 4:43AM
Gus, the comparisons to DVD are entirely valid. I know you and the few others in your disgruntled clique think otherwise but you are wrong.
superklye @ May 13th 2008 11:00AM
Jesus...here we go with the retarded comparison to DVD again.
This isn't 10 years ago. This isn't DVD. DVD had NO COMPETITION. Blu-ray has the biggest competition of all-time: DVD.
DVD had nothing but time for prices to come down since there was nothing it was going to lose out to.
Cheap upconversion is good enough for the vast majority of people...the same people who can't even tell a difference between SD and HD content. The same people who think watched stretched 4:3 480i content on an HDTV makes it HD.
Blu-ray is not DVD. Blu-ray's situation is nothing like DVD's. Blu-ray needs to get its prices down ASAP or we'll be stuck with DVD until the end of time.
DrXym @ May 14th 2008 4:34AM
superklye, this "retarded DVD comparison" is entirely 100% valid. DVD was competing with VHS. It took YEARS for DVD sales to exceed VHS sales. The argument that Blu Ray should suddenly overtake DVD overnight, or that prices should be in the gutter this early in its lifecycle are moronic in the extreme. They are so moronic that the only people pushing them appear to be disgruntled HD DVD owners.
Gus @ May 15th 2008 2:45AM
Zym, youre BS knows no bounds!
DVD was a brilliant new product that everyone wanted as it offered huge advances over VHS, but bigger than that, it enhanced audio and video qualities for everyones TVs and sound systems on the planet, no matter what they had!
C'mon, stop it with the brainwashed rhetoric, BR in your eyes might be a good product and i am sure it is for many enthusiasts and early adopters, but the majority of the public don't agree as it is very expensive, and for the average consumer with his basic TV and audio set up BR offers nothing new!
Please, shout to the roof tops your enthusiasm for your product of choice, but your insistence that BR and DVD are on the same footing is laughable.
As superklye said, "This isn't 10 years ago. This isn't DVD. DVD had NO COMPETITION. Blu-ray has the biggest competition of all-time: DVD........... add to that downloadable content, cheap storage facilities, extreme BR pricing and the future is grim.
BR has a small window of opportunity to break the shackles of being a niche product and that revolves around cheap pricing, the clock is ticking.
iLuvUrOpinion @ May 12th 2008 2:01PM
I think we need to revive HD-DVD -- just long enough to bring the prices of profile 2.0 players under $200.
Jeff N. @ May 12th 2008 4:47PM
But what company would want to subsidize HD-DVD to the tune that Toshiba did? The low prices for HD-DVD were always false because of Toshiba willingness to lose several hundred dollars per unit to win the format war.
ChiefTB @ May 12th 2008 2:18PM
Maybe we need to revive HD DVD and scrap BD. We'll have prices under $200, net interactivity, and no new "final" profiles every year.
daaper @ May 12th 2008 2:44PM
I don't think you thought that through very well. Why would they bother keeping sub-$200 prices if there were no other format to compete with? The only reason they were subsidizing the cost of players was to beat out Blu-ray...
Mr. E @ May 12th 2008 4:08PM
Profile 2.0 was publicized before Blu-ray even launched into the marketplace. It's not like it was sprung upon consumers after the fact, and no new profiles have been announced since 2006.
DrXym @ May 12th 2008 2:25PM
This'll be $250 in a few months and $199 by Christmas. They're just making hay while the sun shines. Once the brand names introduce their new models over the next few months, their older models will be marked down at or around the $300-350 point so the Funai will have to drop too. Competition at work in other words.
Gus @ May 15th 2008 10:47PM
Link???
Jimmy @ May 12th 2008 2:29PM
Why do people still compare blu-ray hardware prices with hd dvd hardware prices? I understand human nature enough to know that J6P will only see the price on the sticker in the store. However, I would think that readers of Engadget HD would be better informed.
All of the HD DVD players where subsidized. In the aftermath of HD DVD's demise, Toshiba's own financial reports show this to be the case. The Nikkei reported that Toshiba's losses on HD DVD totaled $982 million USD in just fiscal year 2007. That is a loss of over $100 per HD DVD player sold.
Jeff N. @ May 12th 2008 4:50PM
Jimmy you are correct. The Prices for HD-DVD were always misleading because of Toshiba's strategy of winning the format war with heavily subsidized inexpensive players.
DrXym @ May 13th 2008 4:49AM
The people who confuse the prices are die hard HD DVD fanboys. They like to imagine that although HD DVD and Blu Ray have virtually identical hardware and software requirements, and therefore analogous production costs that somehow HD DVD players are magically that much cheaper. Ignore them or point out their silly arguments every time they utter them.
Ben @ May 12th 2008 2:36PM
Calling a profile 1.1 player Outdated is like calling a MacBook outdated because it doesn't have a ExpressCard slot like a MacBook Pro does.
Nothing out dated about having a player with less features.
ChiefTB @ May 12th 2008 2:41PM
That's true, Toshibas were subsidized. I think the Blu-ray manufacturers should also subsidize their hardware to spur faster adoption. Otherwise, the general public, which thinks DVD is good enough, will just ignore it. They'll make up in disk sales, but they have to move hardware first. That's what I think...
aplen22 @ May 12th 2008 4:00PM
adopt the game console business model? totally agree, that's what toshiba was attempting even before the WB announcement in January. At xmas my HD-A3 was only $400 CND. Sure they were losing money but at that time they were looking to get that back in disc sales. But the Blu cartel has no interest at this point in losing money as shown by pricing.
But how long can they hold out before DVD sales trample them because there crap is too damn expensive?
Mr. E @ May 12th 2008 4:12PM
The reason that works with game consoles is that there is a single manufacturer of a given console (Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo). They have a monopoly, and all game releases must go through them, so they can charge large licensing fees on the software to make up losses on the hardware. There's no way that could work with the plethora of studios and hardware manufacturers in Blu-ray.
aplen22 @ May 12th 2008 4:17PM
Call me crazy, but doesn't the BDA see a royalty cut from disc sales?
I know Toshiba's still riding high on DVD royalties.
Jeff N. @ May 12th 2008 4:52PM
One reason the PS3 is such a good deal is Sony can make up the loss in profits for PS3 hardware because they make so much on the gaming software.
Mr. E @ May 12th 2008 5:46PM
@aplen22. IIRC, Panasonic (matsushita) and Sony hold the majority of patents for the Blu-ray hardware technology. So anyone who wishes to manufacture Blu-ray hardware must pay patent license fees for that. As for software, the BDA might collect a small amount of revenue for use of the term "Blu-ray(tm)" on packaging, etc., but if so that's a tiny fraction of what the manufacturer of a gaming console can tack onto games.
To implement a true loss leader model for Blu-ray would require a company to own both a movie studio and hardware manufacturing capability (i.e. give away the razor to sell the cartridges). Sony comes the closest of anyone to be able to do that, but since Blu-ray is an open specification with multiple hardware and software players, Sony can't just unilaterally drop hardware prices and raise their movie prices through the roof. Most people (me included) would certainly skip all Sony Pictures Blu-ray releases if they were a $50 MSRP (for instance).
Fortunately, Blu-ray is subject to the same market forces as any other product out there. Prices will drop with time. Maybe not as fast as we all wish though! :)
DrXym @ May 12th 2008 6:13PM
I think the problem is that with the exception of Sony, other CEs have no reason to subsidize their players. They want to make money by selling players. Pioneer et al want to make money by selling players. And Sony itself probably pledged to the other CEs to not unfairly undercut them, at least for standalones.
Subsidization can be a double edged sword as Toshiba found out. Yes you make your players look cheaper (even if they're not), but you make every other CE run a mile away from your format. Toshiba was getting so desperate they were even undercutting the A3 derived player made from their own OEM partner.
venk @ May 12th 2008 2:49PM
$300 by 12/08
$200 by 12/09
$150 by 12/10
This is for the cheaper name brand players
Wes @ May 13th 2008 9:48AM
Hey now! Stop that. Your going to get low ranked for setting reasonable price drop expectations when your group of companies you belong to has a monopoly! Aka the Blu-ray association.
They are in no rush to lower the prices. If they were, maybe they'd try to drop prices to what hd-dvd was at this time LAST YEAR and get the prices to $200.00 or less. Perhaps even the occasional $100.00 sale for events like black friday?
Alas, players with less features are now being sold in Wal-Mart than hd-dvd players had over a year ago for $100.00 more. Congratulations to the companies who supported Blu-Ray. Someday, it might become mass-adopted if digital downloads don't win first.
The final nail in the coffin would be an annoucement of some kind of high def digital download content on the Nintendo Wii or on some device thats already in tons of homes if the Nintendo Wii's crappy graphics card supported anything over 480p that is.
The Fuzz 53 @ May 12th 2008 3:44PM
Great article on Businessweek today about Blu-ray not getting any traction. The article cites high prices on disks and players and incomplete specifications.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_20/b4084050513499.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_news+%2B+analysis
steedums @ May 12th 2008 3:53PM
I think anything with "specification" and "1.0", "1.1", "2.0" will have a hard time with many mainstream dvd watchers. They associate those terms with computer and when it comes to movies, they just want to put it in and go.
why not the LS2LS7? @ May 12th 2008 7:08PM
That's good you say that. Because that's how it works with BluRay. Just put it in and go. 1.0 players will play all discs, same with 1.1, same with 2.0.
And if you want to distinguish between them anyway, there are the names "BD-Extra" and "BD-Live" instead of 1.1 and 2.0.
Mr. E @ May 12th 2008 4:15PM
So much for that rumor that the BDA is going to shut out the cheaper Chinese players just to maintain some kind of monopoly. Please tell me that everyone can agree that there is *real* competition in the Blu-ray player arena?
Gus @ May 12th 2008 8:52PM
Please explain how this $300 profile 1.1 POS player, that only delivers half the HD package as it does not decode HD audio, that does not have "next generation" profile 2.0 capabilities, is not part of 'some kind of a monopoly?'
What is the advantage of this machine over a standard DVD player,...... oh thats right, it can play $40 BR discs!
EQC @ May 12th 2008 10:27PM
Gus:
First off, check Amazon. BR disks aren't $40. Sure, the MSRP is often around $35-$40 on big titles...but NOBODY PAYS THAT. Check the MSRP on DVD's once in a while -- they're generally much higher than the retail price too. Juno on DVD, for example, has an MSRP of $29.98 for the single-disk edition. Of course, it's only selling for $16 at Amazon. It would take major effort to actually find somewhere charging full MSRP for either DVD or Blu-ray. If you're going to complain about high prices, at least find some real ones.
Next: Half the HD package? It delivers HD video and HD audio. Some view bitstream audio output as an actual feature. Some don't. If you've got an amp/receiver with the decoders built in, why would you want to pay extra for a Blu-ray player with redundant decoders? If your receiver can't decode new audio formats, then this player isn't for you. Different products for different people.
With regard to the " 'next generation' profile 2.0 capabilities" -- all that entails is the internet connectivity/interactivity. At best, those features will be fleeting, one-time-use things. Maybe they'll have some brief novelty value (like the 300 HD-DVD and the option to re-cut the movie and share "your version of the movie" with others....but who is really going to care about that nonsense more than once?). But no movie studio is going to want to keep spending money to host online content for a typical 5 year old movie. At worst, those features will just be portals to online stores where you can buy movie-related ringtones and other junk.
This player is profile 1.1. Its got the "real" next gen features like picture in picture via dual audio/video decoders, etc. Again, though, many people only really care about the movie. For most people who just want to watch the movie, 1.1 is more than enough. For some, a 1.0 player will be fine. For you, apparently, you demand every possible extra imaginable...so you can wait until a 2.0 player is at a price you like. Or not buy at all, ever. Whatever.
Regarding your question of the advantage of this machine over a standard DVD player....
well, yes, you are right. It does play Blu-ray disks. It is a relatively new technology, which often costs more money. Some new technologies do come out much cheaper than others...and some of those are heavily subsidized by their manufacturers. This $300 device is also a 1080p upscaling DVD player, which is also an advantage over a standard DVD player. 1080p upscalers can be found for as low as about $60 on Amazon. But, for example, there's also the $290 OPPO DV-970HD, which will only do 1080i. So there's about 40 ways to come at the issue, and some might be able to think: "for only $10 more than the OPPO, I get full 1080p and can also play true HD disks."
See, Gus, some people value things differently than you do. Some people buy the $290 OPPO for slightly better upscaling...some will settle for the cheaper upscalers. Some watch DVD's on a standard def TV and don't care. Some people have an HDTV already, and some people are willing to pay extra for Blu-ray now, while others will wait for prices to drop. This is nothing to get angry about. It's just the road of technological progress.
Gus @ May 12th 2008 10:46PM
Z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
DrXym @ May 13th 2008 4:53AM
Gus, you receive a detailed and reasoned reply to your throwaway (and wrong) comment. Your response? "zzzzz". You're as immature as Truth Teller.
Gus @ May 13th 2008 11:06PM
Zym, get your hand off it, it will grow!
A 3 or 4 sentence reply is fine, if I had wanted to read "War & Peace" I would have gone to the library!
britboyj @ May 12th 2008 4:18PM
I emailed you guys asking if you wanted my review of the Insignia one, including shots of the circuit board, timed load times, actual resolution tests etc. and no one said anything.
The Insignia is identical to these, if you want the review, email me back.
Achilles @ May 12th 2008 5:51PM
*sigh
Still no relief in sight. The economy is not going to help. Sony has said it will have a $300 player for Xmas. Which one is another question.
Truth Teller @ May 12th 2008 8:35PM
So, a year on and the same pricing next X-mas as last then eh?
Samsung & Sony had $300 (in fact slightly under $300) Blu-ray players last X-mas.
Exactly what I've been saying for some time now, Blu-ray the groundhog day format.
No wonder it's stalled in the market.
HD4ME @ May 12th 2008 5:54PM
Wow, I can see this spurring massive BR sales.......not.
Greedy BR cartel deserve all the pain they are getting!
Anthony Pivac @ May 12th 2008 8:00PM
Just ask Tosiha & HD DVD
Anthony Pivac @ May 12th 2008 8:00PM
Just ask Tosiha & HD DVD
DrXym @ May 13th 2008 5:25AM
So you whine about a "cartel" (which in reality now represents the entire CE industry) but have no problem with another format that was entirely sewn up by one company?
And fancy CEs wanting to make a return on their investment! Scandalous I say.
Truth Teller @ May 12th 2008 6:02PM
Hate to say I told you but.....
LMAO
So, the no-name branded POS comes in at a price at or above the prices
known brands were charging last X-mas!?
Way to win over the mass-market, not.
In fact way to avoid troubling anyone with even a moments thought
about this garbage.
Blu-ray, still just about as far away as it's possible to get from
making any impact whatsoever on the a/v mass-market.
Beyond parody.
(oh, and for all those who keep repeating this ludicrous BS as if
they know for a fact what sort of loss Toshiba were making on their
HD DVD players?
Toshiba wrote off the entire HD DVD enterprise with a $460 million
1-off total loss payment this year, so it's unlikely in the extreme
that these foundation-less claims of huge losses per unit are
anything close to the reality.
(but do feel free to produce some proof to back up your rhetoric;
the $460 million payment I have mentioned is now a matter of public
record)
....which btw stands in stark contrast to the several years of heavy
losses Sony alone has posted over Blu-ray. )
why not the LS2LS7? @ May 12th 2008 6:45PM
The $460M write-off is net. It includes any money recovered by selling discs to people who bought subsidized players.
Anyway, something like 1.5M HD-DVD players (including 360 add-ons) were sold, meaning they lost net $300 per unit sold. NET.
That means if you bought a 360 add-on at $250, the amount net lost was more even than the amount of revenue they took in.
There's usually a rousing business selling $100 bills for $10, Toshiba isn't the first to discover this business model.