Yowza: Toshiba's net profits plunge 95% thanks to HD DVD, flash prices
A year ago today Toshiba was announcing ¥26.17 billion in profits for the quarter. Today, just ¥1.25 billion or about $12 million. In addition to the $580 million hit on account of its withdrawal from HD DVD, Toshiba also saw a swift decline in flash memory prices. While bad news for Toshiba on all accounts, we consumers are basking in a market dominated by a single high-def optical disc standard and cheap NAND and DRAM pricing. Sorry Tosh, but you won't find any tears around here.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
DrXym @ Apr 25th 2008 5:23AM
This is not unexpected. The market probably won't react much because they know Toshiba has already pulled the plug on the format meaning the losses are effectively a "one time" deductable and won't drag down future earnings.
BMZ @ Apr 25th 2008 8:19AM
"basking"? You mean " baking."
Dave @ Apr 25th 2008 8:44AM
Bad for them LOL :) Who cares anyway? :)
Tim @ Apr 25th 2008 8:47AM
". . .basking in a market dominated by a single high-def optical disc standard. . ."
I'm not sure how everyone else feels, but I'm certainly not "basking." Instead of getting great releases on Blu-ray that I've had for months on HD DVD (Hot Fuzz, Serenity, Atonement, The Bourne Trilogy, etc.), I'm stuck with expensive discs and incomplete hardware and a pretty lackluster selection of content.
Call it sour grapes or whatever you want, but I enjoyed life much more when I could buy content on both formats. This "the consumer needs one format" stuff is just an excuse to sell higher margin players and software if you ask me.
DrXym @ Apr 26th 2008 5:42AM
Incomplete hardware? Do you also consider USB 2.0 to be incomplete because USB 3.0 is around the corner? Did your USB 1.1 mouse suddenly stop working when you plugged it into a 2.0 hub?
Enough of the dumb arguments. A 1.1 player is quite sufficient for movie playback. If you absolutely must have the ability to download movie clips then 2.0 players are available too, starting with the very affordable and multi-talented ps3.
Nfinity @ Apr 25th 2008 8:47AM
Thomas said: "While bad news for Toshiba on all accounts, we consumers are basking in a market dominated by a single high-def optical disc standard"
Ha ha ha, yeah right.. We are basking in on higher prices of media, higher rental costs, even WORSE DRM with managed copy being DROPPED from Blu-Ray and players that costs $400+ with still unfinished standards.
If this is the definition of basking in a market dominated by a singe high-def optical disc standard, then I guess things change a lot since I was younger :)
I don't understand this obsession of tracking how much money a company makes. Last time I checked, they still MADE profit of $12 billion, unlike Sony who has LOST billions and is just recovering now.
Toshiba just shows that they are indeed business savvy. Something tells me they will make a KILLING with their TVs containing cell super upscaling which will undoubtedly give Blu-Ray more troubles in 2009.
JimC @ Apr 25th 2008 9:38AM
Oh Nfinity, when are you going to get over it? Say do you have a Blu-ray player yet or are you just whining based on a collective rants from your local HDDVD support group?
gamedude420 @ Apr 25th 2008 9:42AM
how n the hell would cell procesing give blu ray any trouble???
all it will do is be used as a scaler. it won look any where close to HD. sorry but you can't add resolution. sure u can make sd maeriel smoother and look a little better, but not truly ad resolution. you are limited to the format of origin. you need to stop talking out f your ass. so what your frmat of choice failed. bluray so far is doing fine, its selling faster than dvd did withi the same time frame from when dvd first came out compettin against dvd/laser and the failed divx. also dvd was even more expensive than bluray is now.
and downloads and vod wont catch on as the dominate media. blu ray will be th top hd format for a while until a new format comes out that can handled 4-16k video resolution in the home.
blu ray has to wait til companies start releasing more catalog titles. new titles arent as important, most ne stuff sucks. (avp 1/2 = ass same with transformers which wll be on bluray but still sucks ass)
when the classics hi hd then it will matter, that and some cheap players for lower class consumers. and the ps3 wll be dropping in price soon since they are making a profit now. so expect a $50-100 price drop this year.
plus people who buy new hd tvs in most cases can get a free bluray player.
and profile 1.4 will be out next year mitsbish is working on the 3d blu ray player, and they are working with sony to help them get it into the ps3 . something hd dvd players couldnt do with a firmware update, due o hardware limitations. (not talking cheap 3d because thats possible on all formats, im talking about proper 3d)
gamedude420 @ Apr 25th 2008 6:12PM
nothing wrong with drm at all. they can increase it for all i care.
if you are not stealing then why care?? plus you can save video to other formats now including the psp.
so no problem.
Luigi193 @ Apr 25th 2008 10:27AM
Dude... get a life.
(which I probably can't say, considering I have none... but at least I don't rant on about a dead format every frickin second of every frickin day.)
Dave @ Apr 25th 2008 10:41AM
Hey loser go get life already. You are broke... you crap format lost HA HA.
Nfinity @ Apr 25th 2008 11:19AM
I think you need to take your head out of your ass and stop being a brainless fanboy.
When Sony has billions of dollars of losses it's just a temporary hiccup, but when Toshiba makes less then expected (with MAKES still being the operative word) then it's a disaster.
How about you open your eyes and realize that majority of people feel quite rightfully angry that corporate greed and anti-consumer interests prevailed with Blu-Ray. We can all see that by pathetic sales numbers of Blu-Ray.
The real question is, would you be able to live with yourself when Blu-Ray does not become mainstream, but stays niche until it's demise by the end of next year?
Nfinity @ Apr 25th 2008 11:38AM
gamedude,
not only your comment is absolutely ridiculous LOL (it shows you are like, what, 12?), your lack of knowlegde is a typical gamer thing. You are young, completely uninterested in actually educating yourself and just trumpeting what you "THINK" is good without any factual and technical information behind it.
Cell "super-upscaling" offers HD quality at 960p and it was showcased at CES 2008. Toshiba and Sharp will start implementing technology in 2009 in their TVs and allows pretty much HD experience out of all existing DVDs. This is upscaling but much much better that will be almost indistinguishable from HD DVD or Blu-Ray as it offers smart cell processing to gather missing information. It takes 4 frames prior to the current frame you are watching and the 4 frames after to get more information in the picture, following the smart upscaling and sharpening algorithms.
If you saw it, you would know that a lot of people was actually pleasantly surprised that this WORKS. It doesn't create 1080p content, but offers stunning 960p.
The advantage over Blu-Ray? It works WITH ANY DVD title, effectively making your whole existing and future DVDs pretty much hi-def.
If we see how many people are actually happy with 1080p upscaling DVD players, you can bet your ass that a TV with this upscaling chip working with any DVD source will be dead on. Nothing else needed. Considering the 2009 digital transition when HDTV purchases will go up. We can see how much TVs from Toshiba and Sharp might give consumers something that will blow them away without making them pay more since the technology comes directly with the TV.
This is one of the reasons why Toshiba said they wouldn't be introducing Blu-Ray players and I'm glad. The whole 1080p hype if completely ridiculous. It's beneficial for 10% of people and even then, the gain in picture quality over 720p content for example is maybe 10-20% and that's hugely dependent on how good your display set is.
If you can't see why this spells trouble for Blu-Ray, then it's pretty much pointless to discuss anything with people like you, not that I expected from Sony fans.
And you comment about what's wrong with DRM is absolutely the pinnacle of ignorance. Not only that you lack to see the reasons why people are against it, you have no understanding what it stands for.
DRM is preventing you to backup your own purchases you numbnut. In case your disc or content gets screwed up you have to buy ANOTHER copy and that's just ONE thing that's bad about it and I'm not even going into privacy issues.
But I forgive you, you most likely don't pay for your stuff anyways, but when you grow up and start making your own money and thing happen to you, your mindset will change.
Not to mention that the PS3 you probably have, in EULA clearly states that they can snoop on anything you connect to your PS3 and what you do with it. You better hope you don't watch any torrents or anything illegal on your PS3. Because they will know and their EULA clearly states that it will be used against your legally.
But I guess, you don't have to worry right. You don't do anything that could be construed illegal, a term very grey in technology today.
Jove @ Apr 25th 2008 1:12PM
dont you get tired of this?????? oh and about the tracking the money a compnaie makes... they have to... they have to care about share holders. dude. seriously... leave your fanatism aside. grow up.
gamedude420 @ Apr 25th 2008 6:31PM
"Cell "super-upscaling" offers HD quality at 960p and it was showcased at CES 2008. Toshiba and Sharp will start implementing technology in 2009 in their TVs and allows pretty much HD experience out of all existing DVDs. This is upscaling but much much better that will be almost indistinguishable from HD DVD or Blu-Ray as it offers smart cell processing to gather missing information. It takes 4 frames prior to the current frame you are watching and the 4 frames after to get more information in the picture, following the smart upscaling and sharpening algorithms.
If you saw it, you would know that a lot of people was actually pleasantly surprised that this WORKS. It doesn't create 1080p content, but offers stunning 960p.
"
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nice fantasy world you live in, but video doesn't work that way.
i read up on that tv months ago and it ill be a good scaler for a tv, but sorry 720p video will look much better than that, and 1080p even better.
its not truly adding resolution. you cant add resolution to films, its just scales it pretty well. but doesn't you can't add something to whats no longer available. you can take away data but cannot ad.
no disrespect, but I have much experience in the film industry. worked doing lots of post production work for a few years, I know what can and what cannot be done
its like telling me you have an hd cam that shoots 1080p , but i have professional cams that can shoot better looking video than your cam and mine shoots in 480(well a little higher but when made for tv its 480 or so)
that and i shoot in 4k digital now though, but can down res video to whatever format i need. but my video will look better than natively shoot 1080p since i shot at a higher res. its always best to shoot at a higher res than needed.
T-bone @ Apr 25th 2008 8:48AM
you forgot to mention the increased pricing in BD discs...we also enjoy that, too.
Vidikron (FU) @ Apr 25th 2008 10:36AM
Where are you guys buying disc that you now see higher prices? I've not seen any price increases. I do see some FUD being spread around though.
1stGreg @ Apr 25th 2008 11:43AM
Higher prices on disks?
Are you smoking some?
Go have a look at Amazon, prices are as low as they have ever been with BR disks between $24.99 and $14.99 and the occasionnal overpriced Fox (-they- do have to get their act together).
Heck, even "I am Legend" was released -a day & date- cheaper on Blu Ray than the DVD 2 disc edition ($18.95 vs $22.95) and barely above the single Disc DVD version.
Wtf are you talking about ?
Franssu @ Apr 25th 2008 8:48AM
They don't need any tears. They had a one-time hit of $580 million, and yet don't lose money this year. That means they're in very good shape, thanks for them.
If the format war had gone the other way round, I think Sony would have needed tears, and even the beginning of funeral arrangements.
Marquoz @ Apr 25th 2008 10:59AM
Perfect time to buy some Toshiba stock, it's got nowhere to go but up!
shawnmos @ Apr 25th 2008 11:10AM
They will bounce back. They still made a profit for the year, so it's not like they are in the hole.
Doc @ Apr 25th 2008 11:45AM
The only minus for me is that since the move towards a single format players have yet to drop in price under the $400 mark. I'm glad to have a single format since we can now have all of our favorite movies in a single HD flavor. I would like to see the standard price drop per disk to match DVD's in the near future though. $34 for juno doesn't get me too excited, but I'm sure it did for someone else.
kcmurphy88 @ Apr 25th 2008 12:44PM
Months since the last BOGO (which is looking like The Last BOGO); blu-ray disc pricing still higher than what HD DVD was (especially Fox); incomplete players, tedious, slow-loading and often incompatible DRM tested only on PS3; still no internet connections on most standalones; still no internal audio decoding on most standalones; and slow, slow roll-outs of new movies.
Yeah, basking is the word. Since when is a format monopoly good for consumers. Sure, it is double-plus good for the studios, but all those cost savings don't seem trickling down. Why should they? To compete with DVD? Hard to compete with $5 discs on price.
DEEZNUTZ @ Apr 25th 2008 2:29PM
@ kcmurphy88
How much were DVD movies after 2 yrs of it's intro??? And how much were VHS movies by comparison? How quickly folks forget.
Did you rant for the last 10+ years about the "DVD monopoply"? If anything you have more choices now than when DVD was introed... Lets see, BD, DVD, HD OTA, HD SAT, HD VOD, APPLE BOX, XBOX LIVE, etc... if BD is too expensive for you, don't buy it, buy the DVD instead.
Read about economies of scale before ranting about monopolies. For the last time, a 2 format market is NEVER good for the consumer in the longer term. I can GUARANTEE that DVD would have never had the success it has if a competing format would have stuck around to give the consumer a "choice". Think SACD vs DVD AUDIO...
And you can fool yourself, but HD DVD would have priced their movies the SAME way if they would have prevailed, so there you go.
About the BD incomplete players, you have a point there, no argument.
kcmurphy88 @ Apr 25th 2008 7:02PM
Deenutz--
Ignoring for a moment that you were as rabid about Blu as Nfinity about Red...
By your logic there should be one car company, one TV manufacturer, one political party and one store. All would have incredible economies of scale.
Of the things you mention, only DVD directly competes -- its the only other way to HAVE the movie on disc. For those that don't care about HD, or have lousy TVs, those $6 discs are just fine.
But to say that BD will reduce costs without other competition, all I can say is that prices have gone up since January, not down. Maybe COSTS have gone down, but it's sure not going into _my_ pocket.
The economies of scale relate to the number of buyers, not the number of sellers. And right now, the number of buyers are small. At $400 minimum to get in, it will remain small. The HD DVD price was bringing more folks in, who are now on the sidelines again, maybe for a long time having been burned.
As for my other complaints, you never addressed them, since they were valid and all.
DEEZNUTZ @ Apr 25th 2008 10:34PM
@ kcmurphy,
Well it's obvious you don't read my comments... to label me rabid about Blu proves that...
Anyhow, yes, I was all about having a single format, and yes I pushed for Blu all the way the moment the tide turned, even though I owned and HD DVD player and movies...
OK, now by YOUR logic, 3 formats would be better than two? how bout 4? works for cars, so it MUST work with movie disc formats...
Seriously, COMPLETELY different businesses, to which you cannot compare. Again, you ignore my question about DVD's success... do you actually think that the consumer would have been better off with a competitor for DVD?
Let me explain, DVD was successful BECAUSE there was no other format to compete with. Studios want to put their movies on one format... keeps their costs down. CE companies want ONE format to manufacture... keeps their costs down. Consumers don't worry about which studio is on which format, making their decision to buy a new HD movie player THAT much easier... that is why BD sales have increased steadily since the format war ended.
Competition comes in with the companies that make the ONE format players.
Ex: HD DISC=CAR.
Sony, Panny, Sammy, LG=Honda, BMW, Toyota, Mazda.
It's clear you weren't an ealy adopter with DVD... movie prices were in the $25 to $30 range for the first 2-3 yrs for new movies... and that's more than 10yrs ago.
Again, if movie prices are too much for you, buy the DVD. But study business cycles before you continue to ignorantly rant about monopolies.
HD4ME @ Apr 25th 2008 8:05PM
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, just like the good old days :)
Jove @ Apr 26th 2008 3:08AM
its amazing the amount of fanatism a simple word like blu and ray can bring... and the amount of 'knowledge' too
HD4ME @ Apr 26th 2008 9:16AM
Yeah, sort up there with "cancer" as a word really
DrXym @ Apr 26th 2008 5:37AM
Nfinity, I don't know what planet you live on (it certainly isn't earth) but "super upscaling" or whatever you wish to call it is not some magic wand that magically turns SD content into HD. It cannot put detail where none exists. All upscaling, even the most sophisticated is just glorified interpolation, designed to remove artifacts and stepping on SD content at higher resolutions. It might make the image look much nicer, but its nothing like true HD and no one would mistake it as such.
And since you appear to be talking about TV sets, the opportunities for upscaling are even less than an upscaling DVD player. The TV doesn't have raw MPEG2 data to work with to determine what strategy to use in advance. If you think the upscaling will be better or even comparable to an Oppo, or indeed a PS3 DVD playback you will be sorely disappointed.
You are deluded or lying if you think some TV is going to turn the tide. It might be a great TV but its impact on Blu Ray adoption is zero. As for Toshiba themselves, they clearly believe in Blu Ray or they wouldn't own 51% stake in a factory that makes Blu Ray drives. They aren't so stupid to deny themselves a lucrative line of products. They will be making their own models with 12 months.
DrXym @ Apr 27th 2008 4:14AM
You seem to know a lot about this technology, so perhaps you can cite a link to Toshiba's technical spec, or perhaps the patent number that covers this "magic detail out of thin technology". You can do that right?
If not, I suggest as usual you are full of shit as usual. Grow up baby, your format lost.
Truth Teller @ Apr 26th 2008 8:55AM
LMAO
Super Upscaling sure has got the Blu-ray gang worried......it's the only plausible explanation for the amount of laughably idiotic misinformation they continue to spout about this.
(I'm just amazed we haven't had the pathetically infantile 'SUC' yet!)
Super Upscaling is basically being able to do in real time with your existing SD DVDs what legal forensic film & movie examination has been doing for decades.
You don't simply upscale the resolution.
You don't simply 'invent' or take educated guesses at additional detail (like current upscaling largely does).
By taking the differing details each frame contains and adding them together you do in fact get more genuine & real additional detail than is present on a single frame.
Courts across the world have been seeing the reality of this for years. It's real & it works.
See the Toshiba demo vid -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qxa1zv5uI&feature=related
(hilarious how they Blu-ray gang have already tried to swamp Google with disinformation about this already, talk about a give-away!)
The amazing thing is that it can now be done cheaply with your SD DVDs on a DVD player or built in to your HD TV.
.......and most importantly there's absolutely no need for anyone to gamble on a new - and completely unnecessary - disc format.
If you want a large size for data back-up then HDDs are where it's at right now & flash @ 32gb+ is just around the corner.
The truth is that it has all happened too late for Blu-ray.
Not only are they screwed when it comes to pricing & having a proper range of (supposedly final spec) players - they laughably rely almost 100% on a game console ffs but by lacking things like the Twin disc & the combo discs they leave people behind which is a huge obstacle to its mass-market take-up.
Blu-ray is a dead format too (and the Blu-ray gang didn't even get the benefit of inexpensive pricing).
It won the little tussle with HD DVD only to lose the war with SD DVD.
DrXym @ Apr 26th 2008 11:07AM
As usual you haven't the faintest idea. No fan of HD whether it is Blu Ray or HD TV will be the slightest bit scared of a glorified upscaler built into a TV. They might buy the TV because the upscaler makes a nice filter for SD content, but it sure as hell would not look like HD. It probably won't even be as good in upscalers in the PS3 or Oppo DVD players.
You are completely deluded to even think so. Upscalers cannot magic detail out of nowhere.
Since you are linking to YouTube, I think this clip puts your delusions into perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMoFQI5TTzY
Truth Teller @ Apr 26th 2008 7:29PM
As usual you can be relied upon to spout cr@p about something you obviously know little or nothing about.
Super Upconversion is nothing like upscaling, idiot.
.....and if you (and the rest of the f*ckwit Blu-ray gang are so convinced it does not really find and add real detail to individual frames you better take that up with every forensic lab the whole world over.
Don't be such a tedious moron.
Good of you to link to the idiotic sh!te the Blu-ray/PS3 kiddies are spreading, it proves exactly my point.
Disinformation, pure and simple.
They must be worried.
LMAO
Kevin-Mahalo @ Apr 26th 2008 10:41PM
Actually it is really, Yowza: Toshiba's net profits plunge 95% thanks to Sony's Blu-ray win, flash prices...
Blu-ray is still to darn expensive and I am looking forward to the roumored HD-DVD+ or HD-VMD taking the HD-DVD position. I absolutely cannot take Blu-ray's prices. THEY ARE JUST SO DARN EXPENSIVE!!! I WOULD RATHER GO TO RED LOBSTER AND HAVE A DAY WORTH OF MEAL OR BUY A LG-T979 HD UPCONVERSION VCR-DVD COMBO!!! LMAO, :D!
***I already bought the LG-T979 player***
chris @ Apr 28th 2008 8:11AM
you will be when you realize how Sony has fleeced your wallet! Idiot!!