Analyst says consumers didn't end format war
[Thanks, Andrew]
[Thanks, Andrew]
Relevant Posts
- CyberLink's PowerDVD 8 pretends HD DVD never existed (35 days ago - 19 Comments)
- Wal-Mart to officially discontinue HD DVD sales by June (90 days ago - 126 Comments)
- Future Shop offers trade-in credit for HD DVD players, will donate old decks to charity (69 days ago - 22 Comments)
- Samsung kills BD-UP5500 combo player before it ever truly lived (70 days ago - 18 Comments)
- How would you change the outcome of the format war? (83 days ago - 39 Comments)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Matt @ Feb 23rd 2008 8:23AM
There is going to be a lot of format war aftermath stories for about a month and then what will Engadget HD write about?
Ben @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:26AM
Blu-ray news of course.
John @ Feb 23rd 2008 3:21PM
To everyone who is complaining about higher-priced Blu-Ray discs winning and how Sony is just a bunch of money suckers:
Please, take the time to consider the target market for HD physical media. Is it grandma with her 13" black and white tv and VCR? Is it the middle class family with the 32" CRT in the family room?
NO.
It's rich-ass people and 16-18 year olds of rich families who have part time jobs and don't have bills to pay. Because of this, salesmen can easily direct customers to the pricier buy. What do they care? To people with money to throw away, more expensive = better quality. You all act like HD media is ready for, or even meant for, Joe Shmoe and his 2.5 kids. It's not. Sony made the smart decision of realizing that the pricing should be higher to appeal as a luxury item, not a bargain buy. And guess what? It worked.
Please, cut the conspiracy theories with huge payoffs. The customers (to whom the product was marketed toward) made the decision. Sorry if you don't fall into that category and feel cheated.
Adam @ Feb 23rd 2008 8:23AM
Agreed. I would have liked to have had a level playing field, but sometimes life just isn't fair. We can all be happy that there is one format to back now.
eugene @ Feb 23rd 2008 8:41AM
the war will never end as long as you have HD-DVD fanboys who can't believe they lost and BD fanboys who can't stop gloating.
AMFS @ Feb 23rd 2008 8:57AM
Maybe if a ton of people didn't comment on these posts saying "stop posting, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" they wouldn't keep posting them. Ever stop and think that if these posts go ignored, they might stop showing up due to lack of interest, cuz god knows there'll be hundreds of things about the format war even though its over.
Jeremy @ Feb 23rd 2008 9:03AM
Who cares! This war is over, and the better format came out on top. There is nothing you can do about it, so stop bitching! HD-DUD is dead!
Prey521 @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:18PM
Better format won? LMAO
ih8aol @ Feb 23rd 2008 9:05AM
I really do believe consumers chose. When I was first looking at Blu-ray, players were $1000, but I knew Blu-ray was the way I wanted to go. When Sony came out with their new model at $500, I jumped on board. I LOVE my uncompressed audio. Only buy movies that has PCM 5.1
I very easily could have gone with HD-DVD if they offered PCM 5.1 as well.
pete @ Feb 23rd 2008 1:58PM
"When Sony came out with their new model at $500, I jumped on board. I LOVE my uncompressed audio."
I don't recall sony currently having any player that does uncompressed audio at $500. Their cheapest player, BDP-S300, doesn't do dolby TrueHD. You have to get at least the next model higher to get it, BDP-S500 ($600).
ih8aol @ Feb 23rd 2008 3:48PM
Better check your sources... BDP-S300 does do uncompressed audio! I wasn't speaking of TrueHD.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T5GGLL_enUS257US257&q=BDP-S300+uncompressed+audio
John B @ Feb 23rd 2008 3:57PM
Surely you jest? Who needs sources when you can keep proselytizing about Blu-ray!
Sam Winter @ Feb 23rd 2008 6:45PM
This analyst just had a bias to HD-DVD or he is a complete idiot.
1) Comparing HD-DVD player prices to Blu-ray is nonsense. HD-DVD players were cheap because they were massively subsidized by Toshiba to win the war. This is easily show by how the Toshiba units represented 99% of standalone HD-DVD sales. That type of model is completely unsustainable by anyone outside the HD-DVD royalties club and no consumer electronics manufacturer was going to play at that game.
2) Consumers DID CHOOSE THE WINNER. It's not fair to say that consumers could only be choosing the winner if one of the formats withdrew from the market. Consumers alone would never be able to force it to that point because of the installed base of HD-DVD owners and Toshiba's stubbornness. What consumers as a whole did do was choose Blu-ray by a wide margin for all of 2007; both players and HD media outsold HD-DVD month after month.
pete @ Feb 24th 2008 9:27PM
Sorry for the technicality. I would still wanted a player with dolby's TrueHD, and DTS' version as well just in case it a disc is package with one of them. This is important as more and more disc will move towards the HD audio of DTS and Dolby, not PCM.
I see the Sony S300 as crippled when playing disc with only DTC or Dolby's HD audio. I check my source, but my source is on the blu-ray disc as well as the player.
Killer @ Feb 23rd 2008 9:16AM
When did they figure this out? After Toshiba bought paramount's support? Or after BDA paid out the cash to keep Fox Blu-ray and paid Warner Brothers a crap load to switch to Blu? Man, I'm so glad analyst are around to point out the obvivious. This was never fought by the consumer, both sides had the cash and they started throwing it around.
HD4ME @ Feb 23rd 2008 9:22AM
Enough with the BS all ready.
sony with held product from consumers and paid everyone else to go blu in the biggest anti consumer sting of the modern era, Warner and co was the final jump thats all.
BR anti consumer cartel destroyed the consumer friendly superior format, corruption won the day, end of story.
I for one will take great pleasure now in watching this anti consumer cartel tank as it is fundamentally flawed.
Exorbitantly expensive hardware and software, market to small- BR can only appeal to what ever percentage of HD TV owners-which is a small number- decide they want to part with $400+, the market is tiny, DVD is too damn good-no real advantage for main stream adoption. DRM infestation to bite back at producers, downloads to eat into an all ready crowded niche market, etc etc.
BR might have flushed HD DVD, but it is going down the same drain, it will just cost them a shit load more, good riddance.
HD4ME @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:14AM
I retract that statement!
It's just hit me like a bolt from the blu what the grand plan is.
BR just might go the distance after all. They withheld content before, they will just do it again, simple.
No wonder all the greedy bastards are jumping on board, as soon as the install base is high enough, PS3, sony studios will just stop DVD production and what a snowball effect that's going to have.
A company that controls content and hardware can dictate it's anti consumer ideals and there is nothing to stop them because of all the fools here who will support this pig of a company, no matter how hard they get screwed themselves in the process.
sony will be first, they will stop DVD production and force consumers not only to buy inflated software but inflated hardware as well, wow, what a bonanza for them!
It will even force consumers to buy more HD TVs, what a coincidence, sony is one of the biggest producers of HD TVs as well!!!!!
All the other studios will jump on the bandwagon as well , why sell a cheap DVD when you can rape the public with disgustingly over priced BR discs!
Sony was once a great company that focused on making the best consumer products available. Now there focus is on how can they dictate market terms and conditions through cartels and monopolies, and how can they best screw consumers.
It's so obvious that this is the plan, no doubt i will get screamed at by the blu zealots here defending this once great, but now disgusting company, what is it with you people, why cant you see YOUR best interests are not being looked after, you are all promoting the shafting of the mass market and it's your pockets that will cop a hiding as well!
Everyone and anyone should boycott anything sony, and force them back to what they do best, making great electronics and nothing else!
This whole HD media thing is going to be a massive consumer rip off of gigantic proportions.
No wonder they wanted to bury HD DVD quick smart, they cant afford to have a consumer friendly product with better qualities & cheaper in the same market place when you want to rape the market, only now with the death of HD DVD can the BDA start to withhold content again.
Let the flaming begin, but please, explain how I am wrong like adults... oh you cant, because you know I am right, it just makes sense.
R Worth @ Feb 23rd 2008 4:11PM
Who is writing this tripe? Blu-ray outsold HD-DVD plain and simple and blu-ray won. Bye bye HD-DVD. Move along.
minimalist @ Feb 23rd 2008 2:00PM
If it truly is the "end of [the] story" then you should have nothing to worry about. Consumers are still in control after all and you can't FORCE anybody to buy a Blu-ray player. So if consumers really give a damn about the things you think are so important to them, they won't buy and you will know you are right.
I am betting this wont happen though. Because I suspect what mainstream consumers really care about about is not picture in picture features or codec support or storage limitation arguments, but simply having one unified format they can trust to look and sounds good. All the other crap is just fodder for the fanboys.
The free market is still at work. It just may not be working in your favor.
daaper @ Feb 25th 2008 9:50AM
How are you wrong? Well for starters, like minimalist said, they can't force you to buy their players or their movies. This isn't a utility, it's a luxury item. If they price their products too high, then nobody buys and they price themselves right out of the market when HD movie downloads take a stronger hold. You're also forgetting the rental market. While prices are high, you can just rent new titles. Remove the tin-foil hat or go back to cowering in the corner of the basement...
gas @ Feb 23rd 2008 9:30AM
What a complete load... Consumers adored the low priced hardware of hd-dvd? Where is the proof of that? BD standalones outsold hd-dvd over the holidays even though they were twice as much. If consumers "adored" it so much, they would have sold alot more players and it would have been BD that just threw in the towel.
Xyzzy @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:32AM
Do you have proof of that? I've heard the opposite, but I don't know if anyone has any real proof one way or the other.
We were able to figure out how many HDM players Amazon sold and, based on their sales ranks, they sold far more HD DVD than Blu-Ray. Other than that, I haven't seen any numbers.
Mr. E @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:59AM
This is absolutely correct. I guess you could pretend that the fact consumers bought more Blu-ray media than HD DVD media for a year straight had nothing to do with the outcome of the format war. I'm thinking it was a major factor, but then I'm a realist like that.
jrtallen @ Feb 23rd 2008 9:36AM
This is getting annoying. If consumers loved HD-DVD so much, why did they buy BR at 2:1?
REGARDLESS of which format won, you were always going to see this revisionist history of how the losing format was "better." It makes some people feel sophisticated to bemoan the stupidity of the market.
What if HD-DVD had won. Don't you think the fact that BR wildly outsold it would be mentioned in an article exactly like the one above. The only difference would be that the article would have a point.
chav3z @ Feb 23rd 2008 9:53AM
lol @ physical media
Prey521 @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:22PM
LOL at people that think downloads will replace physical media. Noobs
Mike Peluso @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:07AM
studios and retailers are paranoid about digital distribution, they know whats going to happen long term. Consequently they were all chomping at the bit to get rid of the 'format war'. All it took was a a push to get one snow ball rolling and then everyone jumped on.
Regardless of what the naysayers and pundents are espousing the digital distribution model is 90% here. It's another snowball that's teetering at the top of the hill just waiting for it's 'push'.
LordZargon @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:18AM
I agree entirtely with Engadget here. Am I alone? :P
LordZargon @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:26AM
Like adults? Hard to maintain that when you're utterly blinded by your tin-foil-hat theories.
Can't you just see that of course Sony will back its own media to the bitter end, as did Toshiba. Its nothing about which is better, Sony invested whopping amounts of money and effort into developing a format, and they don't want to lose that. Look at all the money Toshiba has lost.
Blu-Ray will come down in price. 5 years ago a DVD R/W woudl've set your back hundreds of dollars, not I can pick one up for 20. They're not forcing anyone to buy Blu-Ray or HDTVs. The Blu-Ray market is still minute in comparison to DVD and HDTV wont really "take-off" until high definition media is available to almost everyone, not just in films, but on standard television too.
If Sony did ever decide to jus stop producing DVD, you'd have to wait for the rest of the publishers, like Universal, Warner, Disney, Paramount to all decide to anyway. And they wont even consider that until the market is there.
Sheesh. I wont even continue talking here. Too much of what you said is wrong, and I for one have some work to do.
Good day to you, sir.
Ben @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:27AM
Believe what you want, but why Warner went blu is the real reason Blu-ray won, because Warner's Blu-ray titles were selling better than its HD DVDs. And that is because consumers were buying more Blu-ray discs.
Steve Jr. @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:37AM
You don't say.... DUH !!!!!!!!!!!!
xemumanic @ Feb 23rd 2008 11:18AM
This is freaking BETANEWS, they've been ranting against Sony and Bl Ray from the beginning, just like Doom9.
Andy Sullivan @ Feb 23rd 2008 11:21AM
You might be correct Ben, but answer me this. If HD DVD is less expensive to make, and the hardware is much less expensive to buy, and the HD DVD is a much more finished product, and Blu-Ray machines have a history of problems, how the hell did Blu- Ray win?
Prey521 @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:23PM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
sn1per @ Feb 23rd 2008 11:26AM
Awful track record with formats? One failed format is hardly an "awful track record".
And don't give the the UMD or memory stick crap. UMD was meant just for the PSP, and nothing else. Memory Stick works in practically every sony device, and I actually find it pretty convenient.
Rob Cannon @ Feb 23rd 2008 11:32AM
The headline should be "Consumers didn't win the Forrmat War". BluRay is not done, it's more expensive and it is not any better compared to HD-DVD. I think the studios wanted the more expensive option to win because it means more money for them.
JJ @ Feb 23rd 2008 11:57AM
Actually, I think the majority of the major studios wanted Blu-ray to win was because they disliked the way Microsoft did things.
Here read this....
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/02/21/lessons-from-the-death-of-hd-dvd/
DEEZNUTZ @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:03PM
Though I agree with the author on many points and it does seem to make some sense, he is clearly biased against MS. Plus his use of console sales data shows how ill-informed he is. The codecs angle that MS supposedly took was the interesting side of that article, and makes sense given all of MS' actions throughout the format war.
John B @ Feb 23rd 2008 11:59AM
Studio exclusivity, copy protection, and back room deals were the ONLY factors in the format war. The consumers on both sides were just strung along like the sheep. Anyone who actually believes that sales of media and players were the main factors is delusional.
KayRazy Ken Kutaragi @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:01PM
You guys Krack me up with HDdead being the more consumer friendly format. Lets look at these facts boys and girls...
If HDdead had won, Micro$oft would have a MONOPOLY on the video codec for ALL HD movies with thier repackaged WMP9 renamed VC1
If HDdead had won, Micro$oft would have a MONOPOLY on the interactive software for ALL HD movies with thier HDi
During the War, if you went into a BB you would see many different Blu-ray choices from many different manufactures. As for HDdead, you saw Toshiba, and RCA.
Micro$oft is notorious for buying out or stamping out any and all competition and then releasing sub-standard crap for more money that is incomplete unless you spend MORE money.
Let's take the 360 for an example.
Micro$oft says its all about choice so to get the same things as STANDARD in Sony's PS3 you need to buy...HDD, WiFi, # card readers, and a Blu-ray player.
WOWeeeee what a bargain.
Frak Micro$oft and it's continuing failed attempts to control EVERYTHING!!!! If you cannot see that is what they have done and what they will continue to do then you either work for the Evil Empire or you have the intellect of Dubya.
The WHOLE CE industry lined up behind Sony to STOP Micro$oft from taking over the Movie industry. Kudos to them, and I hope that every fraking time Micro$oft tries to Monopolize something...that the rest of the industry says NO SOUP 4 YOU BILL!!!!
FYI
WAY back in 2005 after Sony had signed up 5 of the 6 major studios and had signed up every CE except Toshiba (obviously) Toshiba was ready to pull the plug much like Sony did for DVD to AVOID another format War. Guess who stepped in with MONEY to convince them otherwise? MICRO$OFT.
MICRO$OFT is the ONLY reason that this War took place at all.
Praise be to those who stand up to MICRO$OFT
Prey521 @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:42PM
Ya, the industry just lined up behind Sony to battle the big bad evil MS! HAHAHAHAHA! That's the funnay! You're not as smart as you think you are apparently. Why should MS, say include WIFI in the 360 if not everyone will use a WIFI connection? Why should they include HD-DVD if not everyone will use it? Why include components that are not necessary that will only jack up the price? If someone needs a WIFI adapter, they can buy it. As long as it has a NIC, I don't see what the big deal is. Why include HD-DVD in a gaming system?
daaper @ Feb 25th 2008 10:53AM
You're right, why include those features when you can charge twice the price for an add-on. The $50 price difference between the two platforms is much less than all the add-ons it would requires to have all the features in the PS3. Hell, you'd have trouble buying just one of them for $50. MS gets $95 for their wifi adapter on Amazon...give me a break...
Jacob @ Mar 12th 2008 11:08PM
at least Microsoft doesn't rootkit your pc. or treat their customers like crap.
HD DVD might have sucked, but at least it was cheaper, at least theoretically. It won't matter that Blu Ray won, we'll see sky high prices that will keep it in a niche.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:06PM
No, it wasn't decided by the consumers. But it wasn't because one BluRay player that sold a very small number of units (remember, 90% of ALL HD disc players are PS3s, more than 90% of BluRay players are PS3s).
It wasn't because Sony paid $500M to switch to BluRay.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show//1327
It wasn't even because Paramount was paid $150M to switch to HD-DVD.
It was because HD-DVD was never a viable format for hardware manufacturers. Toshiba was taking a loss on their players, expecting to make it back on media sales. How can other hardware companies then jump into HD-DVD? They either end up trying to sell units at a profit and not selling them because Toshiba undercuts them. Or else they end up selling them at a loss, which actually is doing Toshiba a favor, putting HD-DVD players onto the market for Toshiba to sell discs into without Toshiba having to make a loss on them like they do on their own.
HD-DVD was a go it alone format that almost certainly could never have succeeded, even if the consumer did like it.
The format war wasn't decided by the consumer, but it wasn't just decided by bribes and studio preferences either. People say the BluRay spec wasn't done yet...the HD-DVD business model wasn't done yet. Warner probably made the right move by crushing the format that didn't have a viable plan for actually succeeding in the marketplace.
DEEZNUTZ @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:21PM
Good post. And who drove Toshiba to go ahead with this pointless war? MS.
JimC @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:19PM
Everyone needs to read this article...
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/02/21/lessons-from-the-death-of-hd-dvd/
What is striking is that Toshiba was ready to call it quits an join the BDA before the format war began, it was Microsoft that convinced them to stick it out. Microsoft desire to push their proprietary technologies is what fueled this war.
HD4ME, if you think Sony is anti-consumer, you're lucky HDDVD didn't win....
KayRazy Ken Kutaragi @ Feb 23rd 2008 1:00PM
Maybe HD4ME is one of those M$ paidn bafoons.
The bottom line is...the CE's UNITED against the Evil Empire and Won, which is HUGE for the avg. consumer.
mda20 @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:23PM
To all that say the better format won, I'm betting you have a one sidded opinion. How many who truely believe that own both formats? I do own both and it's a night and day diffenence between them. If you've ever used both you would know that the HD-DVD format is much better. Java has been messing up Pc's for years. An now it has infected BD. The sad part is we the consumers are stuck with a product and isn't done and will be changing for the next several months if not years. The only question of which is better is not in sound or picture but in value to us the customers. And just like Micr***** the lesser product won.
WebDev511 @ Feb 23rd 2008 4:44PM
+1
I bought players for both formats at about the same time and the difference is striking. When titles were released in both formats I opted for HD DVD.
I'd like to see how many other people have (or had) both of the most common players (PS3 & HD-A2) and hear what they have to say. No it won't change the outcome, but I wouldn't mind finding out what those that went format neutral from the start have to say.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Feb 23rd 2008 6:12PM
I friggin' hate Java. But it's not going to sink BD.