How would you change the outcome of the format war?
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Sean @ Feb 22nd 2008 7:50PM
I wouldn't.
SamiSin @ Feb 22nd 2008 7:57PM
You are tiresome.
I guess you are afraid of losing traffic to the site now that you don't have flame wars going on. Revenues going down!
Gus @ Feb 22nd 2008 8:02PM
Consumer friendly, cheaper, better featured HD DVD to have won would have been better.
I agree with above poster though ^^^^^
This site did every thing in it's power to destroy HD DVD, now the golden goose has been dorked, enghd is trying to reignite the war again.
What a pitiful excuse for an article, trying to lift the flagging hit rate, this site is now paying the price for it's one eyed stand.
mugatu @ Feb 23rd 2008 1:18AM
"Consumer friendly, cheaper, better featured HD DVD to have won would have been better." --
If anything the "better featured" player was less consumer friendly than the Blu-Ray players. How many main stream consumers want to, or even understand how to run a network connection to their DVD player? How many consumers understand interactive features? Just play the damn movies. That's why I don't give a rip about Blu-Ray 1.1 or 2.0. My movies will still play. And don't even get me started on the mistake of pitching "cheap" to the High Definition Television owning audience.
"What a pitiful excuse for an article, trying to lift the flagging hit rate, this site is now paying the price for it's one eyed stand." --
Seems like it worked, they got your hit. Obviously people are interested. Why wouldn't they continue to post articles of interest on the EngadgetHD site?
joe @ Feb 22nd 2008 8:15PM
Actually this site is doing fine.
It is a specialty site designed to drive up page hits based on HD issues.
Engadget is the main site. I'm fairly certain that more special interests engadgetXX will pop up and go away again.
It's like criticizing a store for drumming up business for a popular fad. When fashion X goes out of style the big display for it get smaller then replaced by fashion Y. It's not a big deal for the entire store.
Besides this is the internet, when rating go down to far you just switch to porn.
EngadgetXXX -Robotic sex dolls, Which adult sites have the best quality HD feeds, how good are teledictonics, and so on.
Big Wizz @ Feb 22nd 2008 9:02PM
I was actually going to leave a comment about hit traffic, then read your post and changed my mind.
Bravo sir. Back to my porn...
Killer @ Feb 22nd 2008 8:50PM
Let's see, If I was BDA I would have accepted the HDi deal from HP and stopped the war from ever happening. Then Blu-ray becomes standard with no incomplete profiling (do to the extra time to develop), Bam! DVD successor. That would have been perfect, but I guess screwing with the consumer was better. Thanks BDA and HD DVD for making the consumer suffer through a truely pointless format war.
Mr. E @ Feb 22nd 2008 9:35PM
I completely agree with this. In late 2005, I would have put all the CEOs in one room with no food or water, and kept anybody from coming out until there wa a single HD optical format! Ultimately, my preferred format won, but I would still prevent this stupid war if I could.
Without the war, we would have had swifter adoption, and no one would have been stuck with an obsolete format.
mugatu @ Feb 23rd 2008 1:40AM
And suffer we have. I paid $450 for my 1.0 Blu-Ray player. Whoa-is-me, I'll never see cash like that again. I'm flat broke now, the good times are gone for ever. Momma cook us up some saw dust soup.
Only the extraordinarily small number of poor shmucks who shelled out $1000+ for either format's player in the early days or were stupid enough to actually buy movies instead of renting from Netflix suffered. All the HD DVD owners around here paid $199 or below for their players. That's gas money these days.
allargon @ Feb 22nd 2008 8:56PM
I would've added region coding to HD DVD so that Disney and Lionsgate would've accepted bribes to at least be neutral. Moreover, I would've made Microsoft lower the price of the Xbox 360 add-on to $80 before Christmas along with setting the HD-A3 price at $150 before Christmas to go for the jugular. Swanni was right. With so many studios lined up against HD DVD, it was pretty much over before it began. At least HD DVD kept Blu-Ray's standalone hardware pricing honest before it started going back up again. Sigh...
mugatu @ Feb 23rd 2008 2:36AM
"At least HD DVD kept Blu-Ray's standalone hardware pricing honest
before it started going back up again. "
What Toshiba was doing is called dumping. They were trying to kill
their competitors by unloading product below cost in a suicidal
attempt to win the format war and control the market. Had they succeded they would
have raised prices once the competition was gone. I'm sure you agree
unless you really think those prices were profitable for Toshiba.
Since all the manufacturers were foreign to the American market it
was legal, but it is similar to what is illegal in a lot of other
industries like the auto and steel industries. Sure, very legal,
sure very underhanded.
John B @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:33PM
Oh, STFU.
Why is it that Toshiba is "underhanded" for doing it when Sony **ADMITTED** that they were losing HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS for every PS3 that they initially sold? Otherwise, you would have been looking at close to $1,000 for a PS3 when they were first introduced. The XB360 suffered from the same thing. It's called "loss leader" where they take major hit now in hopes of making up later in licensing and a higher installation base, and it's not uncommon nor is it underhanded -- just fiscally risky.
So, Sony did EXACTLY the same thing that you now blame Toshiba of doing, but yet it's only underhanded when Toshiba does it. Is that it?
mugatu @ Feb 23rd 2008 1:13PM
@John B
STFU? Really?
There is a big difference between meeting a competitive price point in the gaming market and practically giving away players. Did Sony drop PS3 prices below the XBox? Toshiba dumped their players on the market for zip and it was suicide. Totally underhanded. Just like foreign steel companies trying to take a suicidal loss on imports to force all the east coast steel mills out of business. No member of the BDA tried to undercut HD DVD prices ever, why is that John B? Because it wasn't profitable.
Toshiba didn't want profits, they wanted control.
Jove @ Feb 22nd 2008 8:58PM
i would have said "hey sony, respect my authoryttttttttttttttttttttyyyyyyyyyyy, and then i would have kickkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed them in the nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnuuuuuuuuuuuuuuts!!!!" and then the format war would have ended for sure.
Bob Dole @ Feb 22nd 2008 9:06PM
The 360 should've played HD-DVD out the gate.. instead Microsoft hedged their bets and lost. Props to Sony for putting everything on the line.
XDragon @ Feb 22nd 2008 9:55PM
Have it end earlier so less people would be affected by it.
jrtallen @ Feb 22nd 2008 10:12PM
This whole thing is getting retarded. It's over, Engadget. Let it go.
AMFS @ Feb 22nd 2008 10:13PM
Have it continue. I'm not gonna get to make fun of people who post about it unknowingly anymore. Anything else interesting happening?
DEEZNUTZ @ Feb 22nd 2008 10:35PM
Toshiba should have joined the BD folks, instead of allowing MS to manipulate them into the pointless war that was.
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2005/tc2005106_9074_tc024.htm
That article was pre-launch of either format.
Mr. E @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:50AM
Yep, Microsoft was the little devil on Toshiba's shoulder, egging them on. In hindsght, I actually wish the BDA hadn't adopted the VC-1 codec as part of the Blu-ray spec. It doesn't add anything of value to the format, and they only did it to buy Microsoft's neutrality, which didn't even work.
mugatu @ Feb 23rd 2008 3:05AM
The MS efforts were very half-hearted in this whole format war. I wonder why? They rarely make a move without a purpose and could have been a swing player but were very quiet towards the end. I guess they were hedging disc media versus downloads, but liked the download money they started seeing better. Very interesting.
halongw77 @ Feb 22nd 2008 10:55PM
I would've gone down a completely different marketing route. HD DVD's marketing was just plain stupid. They needed to quit it with the stupid "Kaboomier sound" garbage and get serious. HD DVD was the better of the two formats with cheaper prices, HDi, internet connectivity, complete profiles. Blu-Ray had the 50 GB disc but HD DVD could've easily released movies on the 51 GB disc. Disc space was not an issue. I also would've marketed it a bit when it first came out too. I also would've convinced people why HD DVD was better than Blu-Ray in the marketing.
benny boy @ Feb 23rd 2008 6:25AM
This HD-DVD was better than blu-ray crap is really starting to bore me now. Both formats had different pros and cons. Blu-ray just had a better marketing strategy and used the PS3 to their advantage. However, if you forget all the superficial profiles and software crap that can easily be changed, blu-ray was the better format simply because it has more space; it is a tru next-gen format. If you think about all the other uses for that space other than movies like PS3 games, storage etc,then this actually matters. If you start thinking about the future rather than just the present when the next level of HD is brought out, the space on the disc will really matter.
JBDragon @ Feb 22nd 2008 11:47PM
All HD DVD Movie releases should have been on Combo Disc's!!! This is the key thing, No DVD version release, and have the prices at a low $21.95 or something. Not much more for then plain old new DVD release.
Think about it. All Movies from Warner, a HD DVD/DVD Combo and a Blu-Ray version, No DVD only version.
Universal, only HD DVD/DVD Combo release, no DVD only version. Same with Paramount, and so on and so on.
What does this do? Well for one thing, you now have Millions of HD DVD Movies in people's homes. Even if they don't currently own a HD DVD player, what are they likely to buy when they go looking? A HD DVD player where then can just flip a movie disc over that they already own and watch it in HD with all the Extras on who knows how many Combo Disc's they own, or a Blu-Ray player?
Also doing this, Toshiba wouldn't have had to drop prices on Hardware so fast. Toshiba would have basically flooded the marketplace with software(HD DVD Movies) and people would then start looking for the hardware to play them on.
Also doing this, Toshiba could of Marketed that for a low price, they can play their HD Movie disc's in HD on a HD player and SD on ANY DVD player they had all for a low price. No DVD only version, HD DVD would have WON THE WAR.
Instead the Combo disc's were more money, and that just drove people over to Blu-Ray even more. That's just dumb.
It's to bad to. Oh well, I'll be sticking with DVD's for now on.
DEEZNUTZ @ Feb 23rd 2008 11:35AM
The high cost of the combo disc wouldn't have made this a good idea. DVD sales would have tanked cause the consumers who DON'T want HD DVD combo discs would not have bought movies that plainly cost more due to HD DVD being included.
Then, you have to have all studios on board for this to work, which would never happen. THey would never risk the cash cow that DVD still is.
THe ONLY way this would work in terms of consumers buying would be for the combo discs to be the same price as DVD's are now. BUt studios will continue to charge a premium on the HD discs because like all new technology, they need to recoup costs, and since they aren't selling in volume, they need to make those profits on unit margins.
It has to be profitable for studios and retailers for it to work and combo discs would NOT have been profitable at current DVD prices. As an early adopter, I do recall DVD prices were the same as BD/ HD DVD movies are now... and that was 10 years ago, so adjusting for inflation, HD movies are relatively cheaper than DVD was in their comparable lifetimes.
I DO think that rather than combo discs, they should throw in the DVD version as a second disc. I wouldn't mind paying an extra $5 for that.
Aaron @ Feb 22nd 2008 11:48PM
Yawn...I liked this site better when it was HDBeat.com. Get over your (partial) selves.
mugatu @ Feb 23rd 2008 2:20AM
Okay, in all seriousness here is what HD DVD needed to compete that they didn't have.
1) Enhanced DRM - without it you have no studio support period. The number one point of concern among Studios today is the ability of pirates to copy their media and sell mass produced bootleg copies, Digital content makes this possible on a scale never before seen. One hacked copy of an HD movie is infinitely reproducible, unlike any other format before it. Copyable old school media versus HD media is like a regular bomb versus a nuclear bomb. They lose sleep over this.
2) Region locks. - If they can't control the roll out, they can't formulate a profit making strategy. You can't take away their ability to shape the way they sell their product around the world. Consumers love it, I love it. You can't sell it to the Studios.
3) A Trojan Horse. - Sony sold Blu-Ray movies to PS3 owners the way crack dealers give out free samples to kids on the street. If you bought a PS3 for gaming, why wouldn't you at least rent or buy one Blu-Ray move? Just try it once and you're hooked. Every PS3 owner did. The Xbox had the HD DVD add-on, but that's extra effort and Xbox owners have downloads. And that is what tipped the scales, the movie sales numbers from the PS3 owners added up to beat HD DVD movies sales for the entire year of 2007. Game over.
kurt @ Feb 23rd 2008 3:15AM
I still miss the betamax.
earthling @ Feb 23rd 2008 8:54AM
I would have proposed that the companies form a consortium, with a split roadmap, an agreement that allowed one format to be used for professional video distribution, and the other be restricted to PC use, and that there would be no crossover. They would share licensing, and share revenues based on the two formats. Sony would promote the video format, toshiba the PC format. Ironically they would have to actually trade formats to do this.
The goals:
End the war before it starts. Use the video distribution format (HD-DVD) for the distribution of protected video content. There would be no PC based reader... ever. Note that I am not a fan of DRM, or of even copy protection but I also realize that you will never get hollywood to stop trying to protect its content and frankly I don't mind paying for my movies.
Use the PC format (Blu-ray) for the distribution of data and data related activities.
Don't ever ship an HD-DVD reader for the PC or anything but qualified playback devices.
Does this solve piracy.. nope, the 'analog' hole is still there and a dedicated hacker will always find a way but by this makes it much more difficult to rip movies and almost impossible to dupe them at a profit since only real manufacturing lines could create the media that is playable in the consumer player. Would people buy equipment and use real manufacturing lines to make bulk pirated media.. of course they will but with the restriction in place of who gets the duplication gear to begin with it will be much easier to track down.
Does this give us a future for optical data storage.. yep. Blu-ray was always better for optical storage due to capacity but the capacity was overkill for movies. But what about PC based playback of movies? This is really a small market and should have been handled differently all along (and still should be). The movies for PC should be of slightly lower quality, and the entire problem should be addressed from a different angle anyways (downloadable formats, streaming, whatever).
With a dual format but separate roadmap we would have had one clear winner for both worlds (PC and movie distribution) right at the start, we wouldn't even be having this discussion and hollywood could be gleefully counting its new found pile of pennies and we could all get on with our lives instead of what we have now which is this gnawing pain which comes from having to pay the sony tax on everything we do from now on. Of course the tax would always be there but I wish it was going to someone else, anyone else rather than sony.
Franssu @ Feb 23rd 2008 2:42PM
Good plan, in a completely Hollywood-centric viewpoint. Too bad this would have made impossible to make home or independent HD shiny discs playable in CE playback devices...
...my bad, the mandatory AACS protection for Blu-ray video discs also makes it impossible.
DEEZNUTZ @ Feb 23rd 2008 11:38AM
Not a bad plan! You should have been present at those pre-format war truce talks back in '05
mrsitter @ Feb 23rd 2008 5:43PM
blu-ray is NOT soley owned by Sony. the are part of the board of directors (19 members) and have no more control over it than the other 18. geez guys do some research before you talk.
Zixxer @ Feb 23rd 2008 5:45PM
To "killer"
137 companies supporting hddvd? then why did only 2 of them make hddvd players???
mrsitter @ Feb 23rd 2008 5:46PM
i dont understand why toshiba couldnt join the rest of the bda. every major electronic manufacturer was behind Blu-ray and toshiba had to have it their way. all this because toshiba wanted to charge everybody (Sony, Samsung, Phillips, LG, Panasonic, the studios, EVERYBODY) a fee for every piece of hardware and software sold! how greedy. im glad they lost and wish i would have joined Blu-ray before the format war was over.
Killer @ Feb 22nd 2008 10:18PM
everyone supported Blu-ray?
137 Companies support(ed?) HD DVD and 176 Companies support Blu-ray....When did 137 become 1?
regeya @ Feb 22nd 2008 10:19PM
OK, and because I clicked on 'Add Your Comments' and THEN had a thought:
I didn't get fanboys of either side, in a way. HD DVD fanboys claimed that Blu-Ray is a 'Sony thing.' Blu-Ray fanboys claim that HD DVD was a 'Toshiba thing.' And both sides have to continually point out to the other that there were a number of companies involved. True, Toshiba pretty much had a deathgrip on hardware, but don't forget that HD DVD was Toshiba, Microsoft, and the DVD Forum, a group of interested parties who voted on what constituted HD DVD.
And I'd like to bitchslap BD fanboys who want to hold something against Toshiba and high-five Warner Brothers. Guys...Warner Brothers was one of the MAIN INSTIGATORS of this stupid pissing match, and then went off and played both sides. I don't see Toshiba as anything more than a typical CE manufacturer, no, but I won't begrudge them for doing what their partners wanted.
Now, one still has to wonder why, unlike with DVD, Sony and Toshiba couldn't come to terms with their differences.
maurice benton @ Feb 23rd 2008 10:46PM
what a jack ass, sony own the rights to bluray that is a sony product. what a moron.
Mr. E @ Feb 23rd 2008 12:46AM
regeya, you're right. It could be argued that Warner Brothers is the single biggest contributor the format war. Before both formats launched, they said they'd be HD DVD exclusive. Then, just before launch, they went neutral. Finally, when it looked like Blu-ray was pulling ahead, they switched to Blu. Given how much power they have in the industry, I'd think they more than anyone could have forced a unified format compromise up front.
Steven @ Mar 3rd 2008 5:33PM
Toshiba should've dropped their prices in November 2007 ($99 HD-A3 & $50 360 HD DVD). The format war would've gone their way by January 4, 2008. I didn't buy into the Blu-ray/HD DVD format war; but I did buy an HD-A3 for $99.99 and a 360 HD DVD for $50 after the format war was over. I'm going to enjoy HD until Blu-ray players come down to $99 or the PS3 comes down to $199.