Toshiba sez it wouldn't change a thing, still thinks HD DVD is better
[Image courtesy of Bexhuff, thanks David]
[Image courtesy of Bexhuff, thanks David]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
bizdady @ Feb 19th 2008 6:51PM
Sour grapes anyone?
Larry @ Feb 20th 2008 2:35AM
So better formats always win?
Err... VHS???
mugatu @ Feb 20th 2008 7:20AM
@Larry
VHS won BECAUSE it was better. Beta had half the recording capacity
of VHS. Get your facts straight before you get your flame on.
Leroy Vargas @ Feb 23rd 2008 6:35PM
True. But unlike this BD vs HDDVD war which lasted only two years, the VHS vs Beta war lasted 12 years. (Beta introduced in 1975; VHS in 1976; Sony conceded defeat in 1988.) And unlike Toshiba right now who is refusing to make a BD player [officially; some sources still rumor that a Toshiba BD is in the prototype lab], Sony did make VHS recorders since its defeat.
I have noticed a pattern here: When there's a format war, it seems that the winning format is that format backed by Panasonic. Panasonic supported VHS since its beginning (I even believe Panasonic helped JVC design the format), also heavily promoted SVHS during its limited professional life (and also tried to market SVHS for home consumers, albeit with little success), sided with Toshiba & JVC's SDD (Super Density Disc) during its brief internal war with Sony & Philips' MMCD (MultiMedia Compact Disc), both formats ending up unified as DVD, co-invented DVHS along with JVC, and ultimately became one of the nine founding fathers of BD (along with big players Sony, Philips, Hitachi, Samsung, and Pioneer). So next time there is a consumer video format war (and the next one might involve holographic or 3D discs), just check out which side Panasonic chooses and stick to that side.
kcmurphy88 @ Feb 19th 2008 6:58PM
As an engineer, I appreciate a design that is done on time, is sufficient to the task, and has avoided overly ambitious features that add unnecessarily to the cost.
HD DVD did all these things very well, in a way that blu-ray did not.
However, Toshiba's MARKETING sucked. Where Sony was inventive and "with it", Toshiba was dull and clueless. They spent fortunes on bribing studios and then RAISED PRICES during their final Xmas season. Yes, ending a discount is raising prices to most buyers. If they had spent those millions in discounting their players to $99 all season, rather than saving it up to bribe Fox and Warner, they would have had to bribe Warner and Fox. Two million players (instead of some 600K) would ahve turned the tide.
So, the engineering department has nothing to be ashamed of. But management and marketing ought to resign out of shame.
kcmurphy88 @ Feb 19th 2008 7:00PM
ummm "...wouldN'T have had to bribe..."
Spiza @ Feb 19th 2008 7:12PM
As a fellow engineer, I can agree. But I also thought Blu-ray was perfectly fine technically as well. You have to remember that they didn't want to release in 06, but their hand was forced by competition. I don't think Blu-ray "over did it". You have to remember that HD DVD sold at a substantial loss for most of its life.
My only 2 gripes would have been to get the 51GB discs out faster and to have required the hard disc coating. I have no fear right now of buying used blu-rays, but I would never buy used DVDs/HD DVDs (includes games).
qo_op @ Feb 19th 2008 7:18PM
As a non engineer, I can say that the general public reall doesnt give a f***. Stop saying Sony because Sony doesnt own blu ray disc, its the BDA. HDDVD's proprietary format would have been obsolete in a shorter time then blu ray, and i do believe that.
DrXym @ Feb 20th 2008 6:29AM
I think the last gen of HD DVD players was well engineered but I also recognize kitchen syndrome of wanting every last feature in version 1.0. It rarely works. Toshiba more or less managed it (but not without firmware updates for online content and bug fixes) but hybrids had a worse time of it and some didn't even implement HDi at all.
The problems for Blu Ray were amplified because it's not one implementation but dozens of implementations. Sony, Samsung, Sharp, Philips, Panasonic and everyone else has to implement the same spec. Complexity breeds bugs and the more implementations, the more bugs. Simplifying the spec by moving out superfluous features and focussing on core functionality is pragmatic. New features can be added in subsequent revisions, as indeed they have.
I also think that the use of BD-J instead of HDi is both smart and daunting. BD-J is far more powerful than HDi by a mile. Think of all the games / apps that run on phones written in Java. Conversely content authoring is probably easier on HDi. I don't believe it's a long term concern but I can see why some early disks used the simpler HDMV rather than going to BD-J. This appears to be changing so maybe the tools are already improved enough. I even see it possible for MS / Toshiba to salvage HDi and pitch it as a runtime layer running over BD-J for authors that want to use it.
James @ Feb 19th 2008 6:58PM
I don't have a problem with any of the comments. The best product doesn't always win.
SamiSin @ Feb 19th 2008 7:01PM
EngadgetHD: I know, it hurts that you have been supporting a product with an unfinished standard (and that is more expensive too).
I wonder when you will be happy? Red lost, blue one, and the bashing still goes on. Well, the ones victorious in war writes history, so maybe Sony will be eradicate HD DVD totally from the past, and our children will be born without knowing anything about it. Is that your wish?
SamiSin @ Feb 19th 2008 7:02PM
one = won
Xyzzy @ Feb 19th 2008 7:01PM
How is anything he said sour grapes when it's all true?
BD *still* isn't a complete format.
HD DVD has many more features than BD.
HD DVD doesn't require AACS licensing fees like BD does (thus shutting out short run productions)
HD DVD wasn't killed because it wasn't good, it was killed by corporate billionaires, plain and simple (and yes, I realize that Toshiba is a corporate billionaire too :) ). Is this much different than VHS vs BetaMax? I didn't follow that war at all, but my understanding was that Beta was better than VHS.
SamiSin @ Feb 19th 2008 7:03PM
Betamax had better resolution and quality. They lost on size. A regular tape could only fit one hour of film... If I remember correctly. So I guess Toshiba lost on the same - and only thing that makes Blu-ray better - size.
regeya @ Feb 20th 2008 12:45AM
Apparently BD-9 and BD-5 don't require AACS, but those aren't official specs. My guess is that this is what porn companies will be putting out, for now at least.
Heh. Putting out. Heh Heh. Heh. Heh Heh Heh.
Anyone ever notice that it was the porn people who took advantage of stuff like multiple angles, and I've seen 'em brag about some discs being region-free. Who knew that people who pay other people to have kinky sex on camera were the least evil movie makers out there? ;-)
Ian @ Feb 20th 2008 3:52AM
Samsin... I'd not heard that before, but it could be true initially. Though I remember Beta tapes normally being sold as L-750 or L-500 which were 195 minutes and 130 minutes respectively, and there were plenty of Betamax film rentals in the early days...
Ian @ Feb 20th 2008 3:52AM
Samsin... I'd not heard that before, but it could be true initially. Though I remember Beta tapes normally being sold as L-750 or L-500 which were 195 minutes and 130 minutes respectively, and there were plenty of Betamax film rentals in the early days...
DrXym @ Feb 20th 2008 5:21AM
Xyzzy, Define what you mean by complete. Was USB 1.0 a complete format? Apparently not because we got 1.1, 2.0 and soon 3.0. Do you complain that your computer's USB is not complete because 3.0 is around the corner? Yet I expect at this moment you have multiple USB devices plugged into your computer and they function perfectly well.
I think it would have been nice if Blu Ray had had at least the features of 1.1 in 1.0. But 1.1 is here and that is perfectly sufficient. As for 2.0, perhaps you're going to trail CAT5 to your movie player just to access some silly online store, or download ringtones (what?) or get onto a high score table but most people will not.
According to stats released for the Transformers disk on HD DVD only 1/3 of early adopters bothered to use interactive online content, and only 1/3 again bothered to revisit it. This is early adopters we're talking about here. I'd be surprised if more than 1/20th of people in mainstream bothered. That figure might be higher for the PS3 and any wifi enabled devices that appear but it will still be a minority.
The fact is that if you have an internet connection then you most likely have a computer too, so some half-assed connectivity on a disk is always going to be a secondary consideration.
Tim @ Feb 19th 2008 7:03PM
He's right about finished and better, but I don't know about "wouldn't change anything it did". They certainly could have done a better job promoting the format.
But they didn't and alas we're left with a DRM infested, overpriced pig with lipstick :)
DrXym @ Feb 20th 2008 6:32AM
Last time I checked HD DVD implemented AACS and HDCP, so your point is?
Lumpmoose @ Feb 19th 2008 7:05PM
Er, "the memo"--i.e. the fact that HD DVD failed--is not evidence that is was the worse format. Finished spec, no region encoding, less DRM, mandatory codecs, mandatory features beyond improved video/sound, cheaper... HD DVD may have been doomed from the start, but it was the more consumer-friendly format in many ways. Still, Toshiba saying they didn't make any mistakes is pretty foolish. They obviously didn't have what it takes to compete.
SamiSin @ Feb 19th 2008 7:06PM
PS. HD DVD is better. DS.
Just because Blu one it does not mean HD DVD is a lesser product.
R0nin @ Feb 19th 2008 7:11PM
Damn I'm tired of people who can't spell simple words correctly. "One" does not equal "Won".
Darth_Tubbie @ Feb 19th 2008 7:11PM
Hmmm....I guess the majority of the public likes the "unfinished" product after all. How dare you unsophisticated public. How dare you?
Spin on, Olivier. Spin on.
steedums @ Feb 19th 2008 7:16PM
I still think hd-dvd is better, but $ony is wayyy better at marketing than Toshiba.
Mr_Fizzlepop @ Feb 19th 2008 7:34PM
Well, I think any company that only see consumers as the customer have blinders on. Region coding was one of the issues that cost HD DVD the war, Studios were one set of their costumers.
And what makes it Sad was --->that "circumstances saw to it that [Toshiba] had to make the decision not to continue, but that doesn't mean [the company] did anything wrong."
Uh..yeah, you did something wrong or you'd be on your way to the profitland.
I also think that younger people that have grown up with Software that is constantly upgraded don't have the problem that some older AV people have about changing standards in a product line. So alot of the differences weren't as big to some people as they were to others.
So yeah, that sounds like a pity party to me.
BDA to toshiba "You See this watch? This watch is worth more than your car. That's who I am."
Transepoch @ Feb 20th 2008 12:20AM
"Well, I think any company that only see consumers as the customer have blinders on. Region coding was one of the issues that cost HD DVD the war, Studios were one set of their costumers."
I would go so far as to say studios were their ONLY customers. Sure, BD got PC storage out there, but at prices akin to tape, it will be a while before that segment picks up. Even then, the primary use will still be for movies so not focusing on the studios' needs was a costly mistake.
Mr. E @ Feb 19th 2008 7:45PM
At this point, we should put all talk about "better" or "worse" behind us. It's over, so let's move on and enjoy our HD on Blu-ray (or downloads, if you prefer).
I will say, however, that one thing both Toshiba and the BDA did wrong is to fail to compromise and merge their formats when they had the chance. They subjected all of us to a year and ten months of a stupid and unnecessary format war. For Toshiba to still not recognize that simple fact is just ludicrous to me. If they'd compromised, they would not be in the position they are right now. Half of a licensing revenue stream is better than a whole handful of nothing. Can you argue with that, Mr. Van Wynendaele?
Mr. B @ Feb 19th 2008 7:49PM
HD-DVD actually is the better format. They just didn't invest enough in bribes.
Larry @ Feb 20th 2008 2:47AM
Even the BDA technical committee wanted to use HDi instead of Java.
Then some "suits" over-ruled them just because Microsoft developed it.
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6281492.html
Prey521 @ Feb 19th 2008 7:57PM
And they're right, HD-DVD is the better option, but sometimes, the best option doesn't win. If Toshiba's marketing dept wasn't run by a bunch of blind monkeys, then maybe Toshiba would be singing a diff tune. Life goes on, lets just hope to see BD player prices start to drop.
WebDev511 @ Feb 19th 2008 8:12PM
They wouldn't change a thing technically, or they wouldn't change ANYTHING including hiring the same inept people to market HD DVD?
Michael @ Feb 19th 2008 8:17PM
Hmm.
Betamax vs VHS. General thought was that Beta was better. VHS won.
HD DVD vs Blu-ray. My personal opinion (and that of many, thought not the majority) was that HD DVD was better. Blu-ray won.
See a pattern?
Michael @ Feb 19th 2008 8:18PM
thought=though
damn typo.
north @ Feb 19th 2008 9:06PM
You have at least one other thing wrong too.
John B @ Feb 19th 2008 9:11PM
WTF is with the grammar police in this set of posts?
Joe @ Feb 19th 2008 8:19PM
I agree with Toshiba on HD-DVD. It was pretty darn awesome. That makes it's spectacular failure all the more an example of how their business end failed.
Even the parting comment about BD being unfinished shows the failure of practicality. BD is a finished spec. No 2.0 players exist yet because it is unprofitable to release them now. People only care about picture quality with audio taking back seat.
They had poor partners that never helped grow the business and didn't quite grasp the market. The BDA had a better plan and executed it well.
Toshiba just had the Walkman moment Sony had once the iPod took over. They lost at their core market because of poor business and marketing.
Austin @ Feb 19th 2008 8:22PM
Ahh.. Now the backlash can begin. 08' will be a disasterous year for our boys in Blu - incomplete spec for most of the year; prices too high for the average consumer (don't forget about a market in recession..); Sony's stranglehold on licences that attempt to muscle every consumer into buying their gaming console; precious BD-J; every Blu player already rootkit'd to the nines (Sony knows your secrets..); very little growth in studio libraries for HDM (based upon manufacturing costs).
I really could go on and on.. but I digress.
D@n @ Feb 20th 2008 5:13AM
What? Another post from Austin without mentioning "Project Hydra"?!? Gee! ....or has your FUD website shrine dried up for information?
I see your "friends theory" about the victory of HD DVD didn't hold much water! Neither do your frequent conspiracy comments tbh.
Killer @ Feb 19th 2008 8:26PM
Oh look more HD DVD related articles. How original...
Armand @ Feb 19th 2008 8:31PM
ohhhhhhhh why the finished spec?? I loved to download my favorite java game and walls of text using the mandatory ethernet port [end sarcasm]Obviously you fools are too caught up in "finished" specs which add nothing valuable other than PIP (still rarely accessed by general consumer)that you fail to realize that the majority of your beloved Hd-dvd's didn't even come with hd sound let alone a beautiful 7.1 soundtrack. I could care less about blu, if hd was better then i'd side with them but the fact of the matter is that you guys are mad that HD lost plain and simple.
My advice- stop worrying about the AACS fees (which don't even affect us considering hd dvd's majority of the time were more expensive than blu) and all region blockades which don't affect you too much as a consumer considering dvd already has this in place. Just accept that blu-ray is a better product finished spec or not in disc SIZE, read SPEED, and audio.
Charles @ Feb 19th 2008 9:07PM
90% of movies aren't even mixed for anything more than 5.1 channels so what's your point?
regeya @ Feb 20th 2008 12:27AM
I guarantee you that most HD discs on the market aren't HD anything. If you can see film grain and it looks a teensy bit fuzzy, it's not HD.
Now, when Star Wars comes out, that'll be high-def. The process used on Star Wars brought out enough detail to make it high-definition. Don't know about the audio, though.
locke6854 @ Feb 20th 2008 6:46AM
7.1 is like what Gillette and Schick is doing with 5-bladed razors. More speakers doesn't equal better quality. Do a search on 8.1 speakers and receivers, its ridiculous. I can understand situations where a second sub would help though...
locke6854 @ Feb 20th 2008 6:46AM
7.1 is like what Gillette and Schick is doing with 5-bladed razors. More speakers doesn't equal better quality. Do a search on 8.1 speakers and receivers, its ridiculous. I can understand situations where a second sub would help though...
Cam @ Feb 19th 2008 9:37PM
The format was better, the strategy and marketing were not
cheese head @ Feb 19th 2008 9:38PM
Eh, to be fair to Toshiba their standard is done while BD is still waiting for 2.0. Both sides did pay offs and behind the scenes deals to win, that's just life.
I would buy a Toshiba BD player.
burndive @ Feb 19th 2008 9:52PM
I'm going to go ahead and chock HD DVD's failure and Blu-ray's success completely to the PS3. If Sony had not embedded the trojan horse in every console they sold, HD DVD would have had much better traction from the start, and they might have won.
Another thing that HD DVD did wrong was to not take full advantage of combo discs. If every DVD that consumers had bought from the red studios in the past 18 months had been a combo disc, then HD DVD would probably have emerged the victor and not Blu-ray.
Darth_Tubbie @ Feb 19th 2008 11:51PM
@ Burndive.
I strongly agree with you on your assessment of Sony incorporating the Blu-ray drive with their new gaming machine. Bold move on Sony's part and it appears to be paying off. Slowly but surely. But as Nfinity and Truth Teller would have put it, "the PS3 has no factor in the format war; it doesn't count because it's not a real BD machine." R-i-g-h-t.
JBDragon @ Feb 20th 2008 1:04AM
HD DVD from the start should have made ALL the movies released as Combo Disc's. Universal should have made every single Movie release a Combo disc. Not even release a DVD only version. Oh and kept the disc prices the same as DVD, or slightly more. $19.99-$21.99 for a new release Combo Disc. People would be buying these disc's and after a bit figure why not go out and buy a HD DVD player since they have all these HD disc's already. When Paramount went HD DVD only, they should have also did the same thing, and of course Warner also the same thing though also release of Blu-Ray version since they were dual format. No plain only DVD version releases. Either Combo DVD/HD DVD or Blu-ray, HD DVD would have WON on price and being there in everyone's home already just waiting to be flipped over and popped into a HD DVD player.
Toshiba wouldn't even have to drop the prices of the players so much or as fast. If you had a bunch of HD DVD combo disc's just sitting around, and a nice new HDTV, wouldn't you just go, why not and buy a HD DVD player? Already own movies to play on it. Why bother with Blu-Ray?
To bad HD DVD is now DEAD. I'll still continue to play mine for years to come. I still will never BUY, RENT, or Borrow a Blu-Ray movie disc ever. I can only hope Blu-Ray dies also. Go DVD!!!