Sizing up Apple TV (take 2)'s HD

There's no doubt we love HD -- we just can't get enough of it, and while not all HD is created equal, we've still got plenty of love to around. That being said, we demand the best, and if given two sources for the same content, we're going to choose the the top dog. As you can imagine, we were excited to try out Apple TV's HD downloads, but like many others, we were very skeptical about the quality -- considering the 5Mbps bitrate limit. We consider both HD DVD and Blu-ray the best in HD picture and audio quality, so it's only natural for us to compare anything new to the reining kings, and although the Apple TV doesn't take the crown, we were impressed enough to say it could be second place.
These images are from the movie Transformers displayed on a 60-inch Kuro (PDP-6010FD). Both players were set to their native resolution (HD-A30, 1080p24; ATV 720p30). We specifically choose an explosion because we believe that HD content is only as good as it's worst looking scene and explosions are hard to compress.
These images are from the movie Transformers displayed on a 60-inch Kuro (PDP-6010FD). Both players were set to their native resolution (HD-A30, 1080p24; ATV 720p30). We specifically choose an explosion because we believe that HD content is only as good as it's worst looking scene and explosions are hard to compress.

Gallery: Apple TV vs HD DVD
If you couldn't tell from the pictures already, they both look very good, and although the HD DVD version has more detail and no compression artifacts at all, the Apple TV has less compression then expected. We'd go as far as to say that compression artifacts are very unnoticeable for the most part. This is about the same quality as we've seen with the Xbox 360 Market Place, but unfortunately, we didn't get the chance to compare. As many cable subscribers will tell you, there is usually more compression artifacts on HD cable and more specifically HD VOD. As much as we'd love to compare HD content from every source, it's a logistical nightmare, but iLounge was able to compare Live Free or Die Hard on the Apple TV to HD VOD and witnessed exactly what we'd suspected: cable did look worse. Aside from compression artifacts, the cable version has other problems too, like cropping and over compressed audio -- both of which are enough to make us yearn for DVD. But as we all know, not all HD DVD movies are the same quality and of course the same is true for cable -- and we assume for the Apple TV. So while we don't think it's fair to say the Apple TV will always look better than cable, in most cases we think it will.
As much as we hate to admit it, picture and sound quality isn't always the most important factor when choosing content; there's price and convenience to consider as well. This is the one place where cable's VOD rules; no up front costs, the movies start instantly and you can jump to any part, anytime with no buffering. With HD DVD or Blu-ray, you have to either rent or buy a movie which is anything but instant -- but might be faster since the movies are available 30 days before ATV or VOD. The 24 hour windows is of course a drag, almost as much as the fact that you can't buy HD movies outright. As for the price, it is pretty much a wash between the ATV and HD DVD or Blu-ray -- give or take $100. At $5 a movie, it really depends on how many flicks you watch. If you watch more than three movies a month, it's cheaper to just stick with Netflix. We'd say that the TV shows are a good advantage to the Apple TV, but none of them seem to be in HD yet, which brings us to the biggest drawback of the Apple TV: selection. Out of the gate there were only about 75 movies available in HD, and only a handful were recently released -- this is less than a fourth of what HD DVD or Blu-ray has.

Ultimatly, we'll stick with HD DVD and Blu-ray, but we're sure you expected us to say that. In fact, we are more excited that we can now transcode our own HD content with DD 5.1 audio and copy it to our Apple TV without hacking than we are about Apple's HD content.
As much as we hate to admit it, picture and sound quality isn't always the most important factor when choosing content; there's price and convenience to consider as well. This is the one place where cable's VOD rules; no up front costs, the movies start instantly and you can jump to any part, anytime with no buffering. With HD DVD or Blu-ray, you have to either rent or buy a movie which is anything but instant -- but might be faster since the movies are available 30 days before ATV or VOD. The 24 hour windows is of course a drag, almost as much as the fact that you can't buy HD movies outright. As for the price, it is pretty much a wash between the ATV and HD DVD or Blu-ray -- give or take $100. At $5 a movie, it really depends on how many flicks you watch. If you watch more than three movies a month, it's cheaper to just stick with Netflix. We'd say that the TV shows are a good advantage to the Apple TV, but none of them seem to be in HD yet, which brings us to the biggest drawback of the Apple TV: selection. Out of the gate there were only about 75 movies available in HD, and only a handful were recently released -- this is less than a fourth of what HD DVD or Blu-ray has.

Ultimatly, we'll stick with HD DVD and Blu-ray, but we're sure you expected us to say that. In fact, we are more excited that we can now transcode our own HD content with DD 5.1 audio and copy it to our Apple TV without hacking than we are about Apple's HD content.
















Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Kaiser @ Feb 13th 2008 5:19PM
Any word on Amazon UnBox adding HD into the mix?
Aaron @ Feb 13th 2008 5:19PM
It would have been easier to compare if you put the images side-by-side.
north @ Feb 13th 2008 5:28PM
Near second huh? Apple tv looks pretty bad between the two. I take it that was a joke you said right? Near dvd I'd say.
Galley @ Feb 13th 2008 5:39PM
From iLounge's comparison, I would rate them in the following order:
1. BD
2. Apple TV
3. HD Cable
4. SD DVD
michael @ Feb 13th 2008 5:40PM
funny how they say that movies on xbox live look worse than upscaled dvd's yet they praise apple tv saying it's a close second. ironic since apple tv's hd rentals are lower in quality than xbox live hd rentals.
Ben @ Feb 13th 2008 5:48PM
Michael
What do you mean, do you have a link?
aaron @ Feb 13th 2008 6:07PM
Ben, xbox live hd downloads are 6.8 mbit @ 720p (vs 5mbit @ 720p for appletv). so in most cases xbox live should look better or atleast as good on xbox live.
michael @ Feb 13th 2008 6:33PM
Ben, here's a link:
[url=http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=959]http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=959[/url]
michael @ Feb 13th 2008 6:35PM
whoops. the link is correct but the way i wrote is was wrong. here's the same link but in a better looking way: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=959
Ben @ Feb 13th 2008 6:39PM
Michael,
Yeah that guy is an idiot. I would've never said that about the 360 downloads.
locke6854 @ Feb 14th 2008 6:05AM
On a tangent, looking at the updated post from michael's link, they compare dish network with direct tv. Dish looks nicer.
This actually coincides with the comparison shots I've seen on avsforum... dish apparently has less compression artifacts than direct tv.
I'd like to see how either compares to fios
Carlosd @ Feb 13th 2008 5:47PM
Anyone know how Apple HD compares to VUDU HD?
Rusdude @ Feb 13th 2008 7:33PM
Looking at Vudu forums, owners of both Vudu and AppleTV seem to think that Vudu HD quality is slighly better.
Truth Teller @ Feb 13th 2008 6:37PM
The day the general public give a rat's ass about these minor differences - and are prepared to pay the substantial premium for it - let me know.
Seriously guys, wake up.
There's not the slightest indication that non a/v enthusiast people (by which I mean 'the vast majority of adult people') could care less about this to the degree some seem desperate to imagine that they do.
Ben @ Feb 13th 2008 6:40PM
I agree with you on this one, but our site isn't for the general public. And even for them, I'd bet they'd like to buy a movie from time to time or not have to wait 30 days to rent it.
dukrous @ Feb 13th 2008 6:49PM
You seem to be in the wrong place...you want EngadgetGoodEnough, not EngadgetHD. This is a place for a/v enthusiasts. I'll easily agree that most people don't care...those same people, also, aren't here.
Truth Teller @ Feb 13th 2008 7:49PM
dukrous
You seem to have a problem grasping rather simple concepts.
For instance my distinguishing between a personal interest in HDMs & HD TV etc etc and a sober & realistic comment on the general public's attitudes.
One is not exclusive of the other.
Wake up.
north @ Feb 13th 2008 11:59PM
The article was and is not meant for the so called 'vast majority' of people. It is unrelated to them.
John @ Feb 13th 2008 6:57PM
Seriously, if any of these download services want to stand a chance, they have GOT to move beyond this 24 hour time limit.
Don't any of them have children? Do they have any idea how hard it can be to find the time to watch a 2-3 hour movie within 24 hours? And if you don't make it in time, too bad for you! What is the POINT of that?
In the meantime, I'm BD/HD-DVD (yes I've got both) all the way. Even a rental (through BBO or Netflix) you can keep and watch when you get a chance, not this "hurry up and watch!" nonsense.
Carlosd @ Feb 13th 2008 7:27PM
I agree with John.
Having two young children myself, I can say that it really affects my viewing habits (thank God for DVRs).
I have a Vudu box now which I use for only those times I, or my wife, wants instant gratification but have kept my BBO rentals as my primary source for movies which I can watch at my convinience.
eugene @ Feb 13th 2008 7:30PM
Wow, that explosion shot looks like ass to me. The background grasses all look blurry, the bus looks washed out and simultaneously the highlights are blown out.
I'll remember that image the next time I hear someone talking about HD downloads as the future.
joe @ Feb 13th 2008 8:59PM
I'd image the quality is good enough to match most consumers TV sets. There are pretty significant differences between the hd-dvd and the Apple TV images. I don't think the lower quality will put most people off of this.
MP3's took off when rips were 128kbs and that is far below the quality of cd's.
As long as Apple make this easy and portable as mp3's are this will take off. I'm pretty sure they won't
How long did the movie take to download?
How did it subjectively appear?
The images on the web site made it look like you too the hd-dvd images and crushed out all of the black and highlight details. The street and the sky go white while the bus lacks detail. The flying debris appears fuzzier. Did you notice the details on night scenes? Did any seem abnormally dark? Did brights scenes such as Starscream in the sky appear washed out?
Does it use intelligent sampling on the stills,do the paused images show less compression and motion artifacts than the moving images?
Ben @ Feb 13th 2008 10:37PM
You can start watching in 1 minute, but the movies takes about an hour to download completely.
Subjectively, there are a few noticeable artifacts, but the details are easy to miss until you do an A/B comparison by switching inputs, but once you do it is noticeable.
Again, it's an easy decision for Video or Audiophiles, everyone else will decide based on the other factors.
Iridium @ Feb 13th 2008 9:24PM
The problem with comparing MP3 to CD and highly compressed video to less compressed is that our eyes are far more sensitive than our ears. Most people can not hear the differences between a high encode MP3 and a CD. When it comes to images people can spot differences almost instantly.
Comparing a pure 1080p image to a 720p image upscaled to 1080p with never be a fair comparison. It would have been better to compare Apple TV and HD-DVD on a 720p TV.
eugene @ Feb 13th 2008 9:38PM
I'm really tired of the MP3 argument when it comes to consumers accepting crap compression... most people listen to MP3s while doing stuff like working out, or driving or what not, where ambient noise and the quality of your speakers will play a huge role. I don't need lossless sound when I go jogging and I certainly wouldn't jog while listening to studio monitors with the volume turned up loud enough to drown out the sound of cars and other ambient noises.
On the other hand, I didn't buy a 3000 dollar TV so I could watch "HD" content that looks little better than a standard DVD.
Jay @ Feb 14th 2008 8:48AM
My thoughts exactly. The Apple TV looks like crap on any decent HD set. While I'm sure some consumers that haven't experienced good video will accept this a lot will not. I just laugh when I hear people say Blu-ray will die in a year due to HD downloads.
Jay @ Feb 14th 2008 9:01AM
My thoughts exactly. The Apple TV looks like crap on any decent HD set. While I'm sure some consumers that haven't experienced good video will accept this a lot will not. I just laugh when I hear people say Blu-ray will die in a year due to HD downloads.
Ben @ Feb 14th 2008 8:50AM
While I agree that Blu-ray has nothing to worry about, I don't think it is at all fair to say "The Apple TV looks like crap on any decent HD set". In my viewing it looks better than Cable's HD, so by your statement all HD looks like crap except HD DVD and Blu-ray? Come 'on, that's crazy talk.
Jay @ Feb 14th 2008 9:05AM
@Ben - I'm not sure who you get HD cable from and I do know the quality varies quite a bit from provider to provider but TWC in my area is not nearly as compressed as Apple TV and looks far superior to it. I'm definately more picky than the normal consumer and have a decent amount of money in a good quality, properly calibrated, front projector on a 106" screen in a dedicated theater room. Compression artifacts become very noticable at that size and the HD cable feeds I get are very close to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. The exception is the local HD feeds.
Ben @ Feb 14th 2008 9:15AM
Jay,
I used to have Bright House which is pretty much TWC (BHN just does the billing and service) and now I have FiOS (who we all know doesn't re-compress the signal). I can tell you the problem is not always the cable co, but the feed itself. Between local broadcasters multi-casting and cable feeds delivering low bit rate feeds so cable co's can fit three 1080i feeds on one 38Mbps QAM channel there is a better chance it will look bad then good.
That being said you have to remember when I say that the ATV looks better than cable, what I really mean is that the worst ATV looks better than the worst cable. Because I believe that a service is only as good as it's worst programming.
I have many times enjoyed HD movies on HD.net Movies that were easily as good as ATV movies, but as for HBO HD etc, I'd rather watch an upconverted DVD, then to watch that cropped, overcompressed crap with a poor excuse for DD 5.1 sound track.
NNTPgrip really explains it nicely a few posts down. With the ATV they can take their time and do multiple passes to get the most out of the 5Mbps maximum bitrate, but with cable it can go through an encoder a few times before it hits your house.
Siva @ Feb 13th 2008 10:03PM
I have a PS3 and used to rent Bluray movies from Blockbuster online. However, due to going on vacation and not enough time now a days, I canceled it. I bought a few Bluray movies in December and January on sale, but I have not rented any Bluray recently. Even though I also bought a HD-A3 for $100 - I have not rented or bought any HD-DVD either. Transformers is one movie I would like to see in HD. May be I will rent it on AppleTV (since I have that already). Still debating - may be I should find a good deal on the HD-DVD disk.
NNTPgrip @ Feb 13th 2008 10:28PM
Multiple passes with an encoder set with the AppleTV HD bitrate as the final, end-all target, is what makes this difference.
Cable, encodes live. At the source, with all the slicing and dicing, overlays, etc. they keep the stuff at a very high bitrate or uncompressed and then re-encode or bitstrip if the codec supports that for distribution. This is live, and one-pass of course(how could it go back for another pass). They may compress only to the max they are allowed/allocated on the main distro sats, but then when directv or a cable co. picks it up they will either bitstrip it more or re-encode again before sending to you. Once again, live, and one pass.
So, all this talk of resolution vs. bitrate. I give you multi-pass processing vs. live single-pass. 5 Mbps Mpeg-4(pick a varient) from cable will never have anything on a 5 Mbps Mpeg-4 file that has been left to cook a while with a clean source, multiple passes, and time.
Ben @ Feb 13th 2008 10:34PM
Wow, nice job. I couldn't agree more myself, even though I couldn't have explained it as well.
JoN @ Feb 13th 2008 11:25PM
doesn't even look close... optical discs are not going anywhere people...
Franssu @ Feb 14th 2008 6:22AM
It's impossible to compare with the images you've given - especially in the explosion scene - because they're not exactly the same. They're 1-3 frames apart, so many of the additional blur and blown-out parts of the image on the apple tv version could come from the source material.
I'm pretty sure the HD DVD looks far better than the apple tv version, but for a comparison to be meaningful you have to get the exact same frame, if possible.
Kashif @ Feb 14th 2008 8:05AM
One thing no one mentions, is OK, the Apple TV supports 5Mb h.264 for renting movies. But the hardware - what is it capable of? Can I throw an 8Mbs h.265 720p video (suppose a podcast) and will the AppleTV play it? I know from Engadget, the AppleTV supports outputting 1080p but I don't know if it will accept 1080p (and don't even know if it will do a good job at it).
This will help me decide whether to go Apple TV or consider an Xbox360/PS3 for video streaming from my home network.
Please someone inform me, I've researched/google and it's hard to find this information.
kashif
Ben @ Feb 14th 2008 8:08AM
The ATV will not play 1080p, Apple says 5Mbps 720p is the max, but I've been able to play higher bit rate, but if you try to play 1080p it's chop city.
Larry @ Feb 14th 2008 9:05AM
Nice write up Ben. I think the people who think Digital Download are not a viable HD format are deluding themselves. The quality difference is not that huge when you factor in real world conditions. If Apple would put in PVR capabilities into this box it could be a serious competition for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD.
The biggest enemy to Hi Def media is an upscaled DVD and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
1stGreg @ Feb 14th 2008 10:40AM
1) Black and whites are way compressed, and quite a loss in details
2) It's a rental
3) Soon enough, you'll be able to pick a Blu Ray while doing your grocery shopping, or be abel to gift it, or buy a Gift Set, or a Colelctor edition.
I could also mention the sound, the easy sharing (discs), the portability, the impulse buy/rental (I feel like movie XX tonight, let's get it at the store), and countless others.
Those are only a few of the restrictions of VOD/DL. So I'll have to agree with the Author of the article. It's nice to have as an option, instead of Netflix (they're bound to have the same kind of feature soon)/rentals, to check up what you are thinking of buying on Blu Ray or watch what you -wouldn't - want to buy on disc.
Also could be a good option to get the TV show you missed/forgot to DVR.
That's about it, and it's nice to have :)
Josh Wardell @ Feb 14th 2008 12:02PM
Why not set the ATV to 1080p --which it now supports?
Also be sure to try the various new HDMI colorspace options added yesterday.
I would never expect it to be as good quality has a HD disk, but I am very very impressed with ATV and HD content.
Ben @ Feb 14th 2008 12:03PM
If you set the Apple TV to 1080p output and connecting it to your 1080p TV you are letting the ATV scale the 720p content to 1080p.
I don't know what kind of TV you have, but my $6k plasma has a much better scaler than my $229 ATV.
Ordeith @ Feb 14th 2008 1:45PM
Ok, now how does it compare to the HD on XBLM?
wolf @ Feb 14th 2008 7:39PM
Given the argument between xbox & atv, I see that they utilise different codecs. it would help my decision if someone could explain to me whether VC-1 or h.264 have significantly different output quality at the bitrates discussed. I couldn't find any *comparison* info when I searched.
Many thanks!
ZeroCorpse @ Feb 15th 2008 7:49PM
First of all, @Ben: Yes, great, wonderful. You have the most expensive, most amazing, best home theater system money can buy. Congratulations on having the very finest components and the most discriminating eye when it comes to your entertainment.
Most of us, however, aren't that picky. We just enjoy watching movies. If having Apple TV means I don't have to pay a cable company, satellite company, or Blockbuster video, then I'm all for it. It's GOOD ENOUGH for the average consumer who doesn't spend $6,000 on a television set.
Now, that leads to my next topic...
I'm dropping my DirecTV. They've done some things recently that don't please me, and I'm sick of paying them for their bad decisions. I'm switching to a setup with BASIC cable (just the locals, the public access, and a few others) and a combination of Apple TV, XBox 360 video marketplace, a Blu-Ray player (later) and streamed media from my computer.
I will be going ala carte with my viewing choices, and I won't be paying for a bajillion channels that I never watch. I'll just subscribe to the shows I want, and let them stream to a hard drive where I'll watch them at my leisure.
I know I'm not the only one going this way, and this is why I really wonder what's going with Apple TV and their lack of HD television offerings. I can get HD shows on my frickin' XBox 360, but not on Apple TV?!!?
What's up, Apple! GET IT IN GEAR! You're marketing a thing called Apple TV -- Note the "TV" part-- and you don't offer the latest in television show technologies? Why should I pay to download any of the network shows in SD when I can get them off my rabbit ears for free? The ONLY advantage I gain in network television shows from Apple TV is that I can use it like a DVR and watch when I want. If they offered these shows in HD, I'd subscribe to a few of them and give up my rabbit ears for good (they're a pain in the ass. I don't like fighting to pull in signals.)
WE NEED HD TV SHOWS FROM ITUNES. I don't know how to make this any more clear. This is a big loss on Apple's part, and they're ceding the battlefield to Microsoft and the XBox 360. Why should I get LOST in SD from iTunes when I can get it from XBox Live Marketplace in HD?
I'm still happy with the Apple TV's offerings, and look forward to grabbing mine later this season, but it would make a lot more sense if it were giving me all my TV shows in HD. It would make cable obsolete, in fact.