While the official tally isn't out, TWICE apparently has leaked data from The
NPD Group -- which wouldn't confirm the accuracy of the numbers -- indicating HD DVD continued to trail Blu-ray in hardware sales and sales dollars in the week ending January 26. These numbers show Blu-ray at 65% of units sold, HD DVD at 28% (changed from 66% and 34%
the week before, respectively) and combo players taking 6% of player sales. These figures still don't reflect the PS3 or the price-dropped Xbox 360 add-on, but right now it'll really be more interesting to see if Toshiba can hold any of that marketshare after
today's events.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Devils Advocate @ Feb 11th 2008 11:58PM
Hey Nfinity,
Where's that BIG HUGE comeback HD-DVD is supposed to be making?
Over half the cost and they are not getting outsold 2:1 in hardware now, while movie sales are between 3 and 4 : 1
Absolutely pathetic showing by HD-DVD.
Paramount will be back to blu by April at latest.
Mark my words.
Devils Advocate @ Feb 11th 2008 11:59PM
Over half the cost and they are not getting outsold 2:1 in hardware now, while movie sales are between 3 and 4 : 1
Should read:
Over half the cost and they are now getting outsold 2:1 in hardware now, while movie sales are between 3 and 4 : 1
f @ Feb 12th 2008 8:46AM
Should read: "Under half the cost..."
ProfWho @ Feb 12th 2008 12:24AM
I think I can predict the responses in this thread
Nfinity's answer to poor NPD numbers:
Nfinity will claim they are bought off buy Sony. It is all part of Sony conspiracy to rule/destory the world. Your Blu-ray player will one day turn into a robot, rape you wife and daughter, kill your son, and make you watch it all on a Bravia in 1080p. Oh it will be horrible. Amazon sales are great. BOGO is proof that they are winning. Next month HD-DVD will have a comeback.
Truth Teller's answer to poor NPD numbers:
Truth Teller will also refer to people to own blu-ray as video game kiddies. Brick and mortar stores do not matter. DVD will never be replaced by Blu-ray. Sony is attempting to destroy you with DRM. Everyone who does not agree with him is an idiot and a fanboy. Next month HD-DVD will have a comeback.
El perron @ Feb 12th 2008 12:59AM
Damn, U took the words right out of my mouth!!!
But those numbers dont mean shit, as long as Amazon exists. Right Nfinity? LOL!
Nfinity @ Feb 12th 2008 2:29AM
The amount of idiots in this world with absolutely no brain continues to amaze me.
First of all Engadgets timing as usual with the news is impeccible to inflict more damage to the news today because the news reported is actually OLD news. These are the sales of the week January 26th and we few are in second week of February.. so it's obvious what agenda of Engadget is..
Second of all, in that week the free giveaway of Blu-Ray players were still very much in swing.. Of course, we won't see numbers of first week of February because they will show dramatic increase in numbers.. we will however not see new numbers until they are miserable for HD DVD considering the netflix news and Best Buy's complete nonsense news that coincide with Netflix news.
The anti-consumer attack continues. Despicable none the less.
It's pointless to argue with idiots, so what I will do is vote with my wallet, supporting a much better format that actaully works and costs 3-4 times less and is actually beneficial to the consumers and all of you morons can do whatever the hell you want to do and we'll see if mainstream consumers will prefer or will actaully buy $400 players or $100 players.
Since only an idiot can glorify weekly numbers as some kind of measurement especially with completely bought off numbers and that have no connection with real numbers due to so many biased things happening.
Just let it go.. go and buy your blu-ray players.. you should be safe right? You won..or that's the illusion you live in..
El perron @ Feb 12th 2008 2:35AM
"they will show dramatic increase in numbers"
Wait, isn't that what Nfinity said last month?
DrXym @ Feb 12th 2008 4:47AM
@Nfinity, "The anti-consumer attack continues. Despicable none the less."
Funny. How is the format that is winning by a large margin in sales of players and disks "anti-consumer"?
Jonsson @ Feb 12th 2008 5:57AM
Nfinity uses the word "idiots" quite a lot. Well he should know since he seems to have first hand experience at being one.
What a load of BS !!!
DrCheese @ Feb 12th 2008 8:35AM
@ Nfinity
You retard, the NPD results are always delayed. It takes time for them to collate the data properly.
Josh @ Feb 12th 2008 12:10PM
WOW Nfinity, you presume that just because we can read the writing on the wall we're idiots? As for "players that actually work," I've dealt with every HD DVD player made thus far in a retail environment along with a large number of the Blu-Rays. I can tell you the failure rate, disc-read error problems and non-functioning function problems (including repeat...which never works with HD DVD) are much higher on the red side than Blu. Fair enough that the network functionality, PiP and other features have been on Toshiba's side of the court until recently but to say that the players work better is simply not the case. I recommended customers buy both for a long time, I myself own both, but it's painfully obvious that it's over friend.
ProfWho @ Feb 12th 2008 12:13PM
I just want to say I called it to the nail on Truth teller and Nfinity's responses.
BTW you lucky numbers today are
16 7 40 25 73 9
Mote @ Feb 12th 2008 12:36AM
Countdown to the Nfinity/Truth Teller spin cycle in 5...4...3...2...
A-biotic @ Feb 12th 2008 12:54AM
wait!!! my popcorn isn't ready yet! (I don't want to miss the show).
morpheus73 @ Feb 12th 2008 12:59AM
It's kinda hard to spin this stuff....let's see what the FUD twins come up with.
Been a lousy day for HD-DVD.
qo_op @ Feb 12th 2008 1:09AM
Nifinity and Truth Teller arent really HD-DVD backers, they just spam the blog with FUD for the sake of argument. Its pretty sad actually.
JeffDM @ Feb 12th 2008 1:15AM
I think HDPurist does a lot of the same things too, though they're all irritating in their own special way. I think it's pathetic.
John B @ Feb 12th 2008 1:10AM
Well, I'll have to give TT and Nfinity some credit. It's pretty sad when the majority of posts have nothing directly to do with the topic itself and instead deals with trying to combat two trolls.
Do you people even *realize* that you've become tools to those two trolls?
Anyway, even I'll admit that it's as good as over. The fat lady isn't singing yet, but she's off on the wings of the stage getting ready to make her entrance. Hey, Toshiba, time to start bringing out BD players with legacy HD DVD compatibility, okay?
anon @ Feb 12th 2008 9:28AM
I gotta agree with you there. It's taken a lot of beating me over the head with news stories like this over the last few days to see that HD DVD is on life support now. I'll still keep my player and all my movies. They will still play fine for years to come. I just wish the war went the other way since the more expensive, incomplete format looks like it's going to win, but at least it's finally just about over, and it looks like Sony finally got a format right by buying up studio support. Where are the cheap 2.0 players now?
John B @ Feb 12th 2008 10:28AM
Same here. I have no regrets for my HD DVD purchases, and I'll probably buy another one when the clearance sales start just so I have a backup unit.
But I'm not going to be strong-armed into paying 5x what I paid for my HD DVD player in order to watch BD, and I'm not going to "settle" for a profile 1.0 player just because they're cheap(er). If I'm going to get a BD player, I'm going to get the right one for me, and profile 1.0 isn't it. Until then, I'll stick with upscaled DVD instead. Unfortunately, I see that being the case for most people now that the (much) more expensive of the two formats appears to be the winner.
regeya @ Feb 12th 2008 4:33PM
Yeah; looks like the full-court-press hatchet job is working. Ah, well; it's not like it's the first time it's happened and it certainly won't be the last. It was time for the second wave of adoption, people polled were pretty strongly leaning in the "wrong" direction, so the current massive crop of "blah is dropping HD DVD in favor of Blu" stories isn't surprising.
I can only hope that the pipe dream of higher profits for CE manufacturers for going Blu will be forgotten when studios remember that less money spent on players == more money for software. From what I've been seeing apparently companies took a beating on DVD, but c'mon, not too many people will be willing to spend $500 on a player in a couple of years, especially not when there was a darn near identical competitor that was going for $100-$150. And no, most people won't care if it was a firesale, and even the more savvy people know that companies like Sony sell units at a loss to spur adoption. What, you think Sony's making money on the PS3? Or that MS makes money on the 360? BWAHAHAHA...
Jonathon Burdine @ Feb 12th 2008 1:17AM
still doesnt matter to me, we sell hd-dvd add on for 360 like crazy we cant keep them in stock, but those pscraps with gay ray are still on the shelves...
and why do u think we sell hd-dvd add on all the time, we have them both set up next to each other on the same tv with some of the same movies, and we the customers finish seeing them, they leave with a 360 and hd-dvd add on or they leave with the hd-dvd player, poor sony is left without a customer...
all this war is about money, who is willing to bank on it all, and thats sony... if toshiba would have put their company on the line, they would have won... but it isnt over yet, nothing is ever over until the customers say so, and i mean every customer, so until hd-dvd never sells a unit or movie then the war will continue, even if it was 99-1 the war will still go on...
so this war will never end...
oh yea, i found out what the big news in march is going to be for, toshiba paramount and universal... and no no no they are not going blu ray ever...
they are teaming up with microsoft fully, and releasing a new format, that everyone has heard of, hd-vmd...
here is the scoop...
they are starting a service where you can download full hd 1080p movies online in as little as 2 hours... plus they are using the vc-2.0 codec, that i was telling everyone about, and yes microsoft owns it and no blu ray will never have it, they have vc-1 but they wont have vc-2.0
... You will also be able to burn these movies to these new discs, best thing is they are plain regular dvds just used with a new technology, where they can get up to 40 gbs on a single layer, lets see blu ray top that... and it supports every codec known to man... When you buy them online, from my source they said that the movies will start at 12-15 dollars for the movies, and the other money coming from people purchasing the discs to burn the movies too...
i think this is it...
digital downloads already, plus you can burn them to a disc, insane... SO long good buddy HD-DVD u will be missed, haha not really these movies can play in your hd-dvd players, dont think toshiba is going to piss off all of its loyal customers... and these wont play in blu ray, man this is cracking me up, how this is going to destroy blu ray and sony's hopes of finally winning a format war, hahaha
hit me back up if you need to know more details about this... i have a few more... i will keep talking to our source and then let everyone know...
The future is blu no more, nor is it red... It's Digital
MasterCKO @ Feb 12th 2008 5:02AM
Hmm, not only are you a troll, but in the same blog as Nfinity and TT, you are a poor shadow of a troll. Sorry, fail. Thanks for trying.
KayRazy Ken Kutaragi @ Feb 12th 2008 10:35AM
Instead of responding on my own let me just copy and paste sfdiddy's post.....this should be a standard response to KayRazy BS like this post above
Delusion:
delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception.
Mental Illness:
Mental disorder or mental illness are terms used to refer a psychological or physiological pattern that occurs in an individual and is usually associated with distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture.
morpheus73 @ Feb 12th 2008 1:20AM
John B
I agree with you. I've thought for awhile that Truth Teller is at a point where he's just playing with everyone; he knows the format is toast. I actually just enjoy the posts....they're amusing as hell.
morpheus73 @ Feb 12th 2008 1:25AM
Burdine post definitely falls in the "delusional" category. Love the talk of "sources" that can't be verified. These must be the same sources that said Warner was going red. He's got all this inside info that's not being reported ANYWHERE ELSE.
sfditty @ Feb 14th 2008 10:53PM
I believe that *you* believe...
regeya @ Feb 12th 2008 4:29PM
And yet, here on EngadgetHD, some guy's blog where someone from Warner told him that HD-A3s were being returned faster than they were selling was newsworthy.
Hypocritical much?
Don't get me wrong; I see the writing on the wall. The writing on the wall tells me that, with consumers snatching up firesale players for cheap, they're going to find they chose "wrong" so that right or wrong Blu will win. That's still a win, though. It's a dirty win, but it's a win. As many others have said, though, I'll be darned if I'll give in to the oft-spouted CE press recommendation of "buy a Blu-Ray player NOW because it's SAFE to" because I know it's NOT. Go ahead, rate me down, point out the PS3, blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda...how does recommending a game console make you any better than any other sort of fanboy?
morpheus73 @ Feb 12th 2008 1:45AM
Awwwwwww someone get their feelings hurt? Do you realize how mentally disturbed that post was?
Something that big(and it would be huge, no doubt) wouldn't be leaked to a rep. Something like that would stay hidden until the last possible moment. And if it is indeed true, dontcha think Toshiba would've told Warner about it? That alone probably would've made Warner stay at least format neutral. And why would Toshiba spend $3 million on an ad for a format they're planning on dumping in two months?
DrXym @ Feb 12th 2008 4:26AM
I doubt a regional ad run during the worst timing slot of the superbowl would cost $3 million. It was a super bowl ad done on the cheap. I cannot say how much it cost but I would guess it would be a fraction of what the national ads cost in the prime slots.
As to why Toshiba did run an advert... Probably because they have hundreds of thousands of HD DVD players sitting in their channels that either need to be sold or written off. That means selling them for whatever price people will take them for. An ad might help with this.
I doubt Toshiba had any of this in mind in January, but Warner's going blu was a huge kick in the balls for HD DVD. A mortal blow since its been bad news ever since. HD DVD is not going to recover.
pedantic @ Feb 12th 2008 2:07AM
Do the number account for the number of returned HD-DVD players?
El perron @ Feb 12th 2008 2:32AM
Yep, delusional indeed, poor John B, I kind of feel sorry for these people that still have hopes for HD DVD and think that downloads is the future.
But its kind of fun to read their posts.
morpheus73 @ Feb 12th 2008 2:42AM
El perron
Downloads will be the future, no doubt about it...as for how many years it'll take to get there, well that's up for debate.
We all sit here and babble on about 2 companies engaged in a format war....there are many, many more than that trying to become the de facto download solution. It'll take years to sort that out, then you've gotta educate the average American about the whole concept of tv-pc or come out with a very robust set-top box. Feel free to continue to buy the shiny discs, in whichever format you prefer. Optical media's gonna have some life to it for awhile.
stephenbratz2 @ Feb 12th 2008 3:01AM
A few months ago the HD supporters said that Blu sales - such as BOGO - would stop because most of the studios were going Blu exclusive and there was no competion. The Blu people said it would not happen. If you go to Blu forums (such as the Blu-ray forum on avsforum.com) they are complaining that for a while there have been no new sales on Blu disks. Meanwhile, Amazon has a 50% off sale on many HD disks. I guess with no competition, that did happen - no reason to dicount Blu disks.
apr3ntice @ Feb 12th 2008 4:19AM
You can't deny that, as long as there are 2 formats, the competetion is much fircer... Now that,it looks like Red is down for the count, the Blue team has stopped competing on prices. With massive whining from the Blue fans to follow.
Consumers should be interested in keeping both formats alive for as long as possible.
Studios are only interested in one format, so they can sell their stuff for a higher price...
DrXym @ Feb 12th 2008 4:40AM
DVD is the single SD format yet disks get discounted all the time. Why do you think it's going to be any different with Blu Ray?
Most mainstream movies have a life cycle that usually goes - 1) cinematic release, 2) rental / DVD / BD release, 3) pay TV / video on demand, 4) catalogue title / free TV. Once a movie hits 3) the DVD normally receives a discount because its not worth full price any more. The same will hold true for BD although the more mainstream it becomes, the more promotions you will see.
Certainly you won't have two competing formats throwing money into promotions, but you still have plenty of competition between studios, electronics manufacturers, and retailers. There will be lots of promotions.
MasterCKO @ Feb 12th 2008 5:08AM
Thank you DrXym,
I seriously dislike the posts that are like "now that there's only one format, there will never be any more sales for BD because there will be no competition."
Have you people shopped for anything, ever? I mean, seriously. You clearly don't understand how this whole CAPITALISM thing works.
RaynorWolfcastle @ Feb 12th 2008 5:18AM
I am happy to see that this stupid format war is finally ending (and I say this as an HD DVD add-on owner). My only gripe is that there are no BD Live! capable players available at this point (with the possible exception that the PS3 will be software upgradeable).
I, for one, will not be buying a BD player until someone releases a BD Live! player at a ~$200-$250 price point.
As an aside, I think that once ADSL 2+/DOCSIS 3.0/FTTx connections become more common in North America Blu-Ray will go the way of the CD: still viable, but playing second fiddle to HD downloads. Just like with MP3s vs CDs, people who want 1080p and lossless audio will buy/rent discs, but most people will be happy with the 720p and lossy audio that downloads provide.
Sam Winter @ Feb 12th 2008 7:03AM
Unless I'm mistaken, Bluray "Live" really means nothing. It is just a standard to require all players that have the label to have ethernet/wifi. So if you get a BD profile 1.1 player with ethernet, then you have a "BD live player".
anon @ Feb 12th 2008 9:31AM
I might be mistaken too, but I think the whole "BD-Live" thing also needs 1GB of local storage that is required on 2.0 along with that ethernet connection.
Mr Stevo @ Feb 12th 2008 10:08AM
Well, eventually all hard disc media will go the route of the Dodo. But, it takes a very long time for that to happen. But, look at all the Operating Systems, programs, and applications that sell more on a disc than downloads. Why? Because people don't trust hard drives 100%, and people like to have a form of their product that they can hold in their hands. Something they can safely put in a case and find a safe place for it. Psychological? Yes. But, it's the truth.
Also, take into consideration that with all the online music download stores, CDs are still selling by the millions. The record labels complain because they think that legally downloaded music should not affect their CD numbers. And that's just ridiculous. Plus, their numbers are "fixed" just so they can get Washington to sign laws to destroy the "Fair Use" law.
Also, HD downloads are way far ahead into the future. All the "HD" format offered for download is an over compressed image of the Blu-ray or the HD-DVD version. So, it doesn't measure up yet. I think once people start getting their 42" and over, they'd start to notice the difference between a download and the disc version of a movie.
Jonsson @ Feb 12th 2008 6:00AM
Your delusional because you talk BS. Digital downloads. Yeah right, it would take me a week to download a full HD quality movie. Complete BS.
Jonsson @ Feb 12th 2008 6:02AM
This comment was supposed to be a reply to Burdine above. Do not understand why it ended up at the end instead :-(
D@n @ Feb 12th 2008 6:10AM
@Jonathon Burdine
Oh dear! Where do I begin?
"all this war is about money"
Understatement of the year I would say! Well...DUH! They're all in it for the money! Those no good dirty low corporations all hell bent on separating your money from your pocket, into theirs!
"who is willing to bank on it all, and thats sony... if toshiba would have put their company on the line, they would have won"
Really? I distinctly read Toshiba are taking massive losses on their investment in HD DVD and are trailing badly in both hardware and software sales.
"but it isnt over yet, nothing is ever over until the customers say so, and i mean every customer"
Yeah, they're really going to keep distrubuting HD DVD to the few lonely souls who refuse to jump into bed with Blu-ray.
"even if it was 99-1 the war will still go on...so this war will never end..."
I think the consumers and retailers will end it before Toshiba decides to throw in the towel.
"here is the scoop..."
Well it's more "here is the poop..." but do continue!
"oh yea, i found out what the big news in march is going to be for, toshiba paramount and universal... and no no no they are not going blu ray ever...they are teaming up with microsoft fully, and releasing a new format, that everyone has heard of, hd-vmd..."
So the big revolation is they're going to push a second format to compete with HD DVD? O...K! So what was the point to the first half of your post? "HD DVD WILL NEVER GIVE UP!" you cried with clenched fist!
Damn you Microso....hang on! Doesn't New Medium Enterprises own HD-VMD? When did Microsoft get their greasy mits on it?
"they are starting a service where you can download full hd 1080p movies online in as little as 2 hours..."
I'm sorry, which is it? Are they launching HD-VMD or a download service? Can you make your mind up please?
Anyway, so you're saying you can theoretically download 1 movie in 2 hours? not withstanding bandwidth and contention problems of course which will increase it even further.
"plus they are using the vc-2.0 codec, that i was telling everyone about"
You did? When? Just now? k...thanks!
"and yes microsoft owns it and no blu ray will never have it, they have vc-1 but they wont have vc-2.0"
Awww shame! Microsoft won't share their toys? *sulks*
"You will also be able to burn these movies to these new discs, best thing is they are plain regular dvds just used with a new technology, where they can get up to 40 gbs on a single layer"
Hang on a minute, so you now have to purchase a HD-VMD multilayer burner too? Damn!
If you'd bothered to read up on HD-VMD (or even understood it) you will know it stores 5GB per layer (not 40! haven't mistaken storage for transfer speed have you?) up to a maximum of 6 layers. Yes and that means proprietory discs which is definitely NOT standard DVD technology.
"lets see blu ray top that"
1 layer HD-VMD = 5GB, 1 layer Blu-ray = 25GB! Damn those numbers! I promise I won't mention HD-VMD can't play advanced audio codecs....OOPS!
"SO long good buddy HD-DVD u will be missed, haha not really these movies can play in your hd-dvd players, dont think toshiba is going to piss off all of its loyal customers... and these wont play in blu ray, man this is cracking me up, how this is going to destroy blu ray and sony's hopes of finally winning a format war, hahaha"
So you think that a new technology will somehow miraculously work on current HD DVD hardware? Or does it come with one magic firmware update that turns HD DVD drives into HD-VMD multilayer drives! Genious! Do you think I can get one which works on my old DVD player?
"hit me back up if you need to know more details about this... i have a few more... i will keep talking to our source and then let everyone know..."
We can hit you? Cool! Who's first?
"The future is blu no more, nor is it red... It's Digital"
So you think the FUTURE is in downloads which will take 2 hours+ which you will then have to burn on onto a proprietory disc, which ummm takes yet more time and gives you?....a movie on a disc!
Revolutionary!
monkeyshinez @ Feb 12th 2008 7:29AM
D@n, that was brilliant. Brace yourself for the invective-laced, spittle-flying response.
KayRazy Ken Kutaragi @ Feb 12th 2008 10:33AM
Instead of responding on my own let me just copy and paste sfdiddy's post.....this should be a standard response to KayRazy BS like this post above
Delusion:
delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception.
Mental Illness:
Mental disorder or mental illness are terms used to refer a psychological or physiological pattern that occurs in an individual and is usually associated with distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture.
KayRazy Ken Kutaragi @ Feb 12th 2008 10:37AM
This was not a reply to the above thread....fix your shit Engadget.
David @ Feb 12th 2008 11:21PM
I don't know whether Toshiba put its company on the line to support HD DVD, but I do know Sony did. By forcing bluray into playstation 3, they essentially endangered its most profiting division (gaming) to win the format war. Playstation 3 had to be delayed one full year before release and have a higher price point. As we all know, the Wii replaced the playstation 2 as the console to own, and xbox 360 cemented its place as the must have hardcore console in America and other english countries.
honestly, bluray is not worth it at this point. at 400$ minimum, it's basically a dvd player in high definition, with no other next generation features.
John B @ Feb 12th 2008 6:11AM
"Yep, delusional indeed, poor John B, I kind of feel sorry for these people that still have hopes for HD DVD and think that downloads is the future."
Excuse me? I do hope that you simply neglected to remove the "h" in that first name, there, ol' chap!
Dave @ Feb 12th 2008 6:59AM
Yeah! Blu-ray for the win!
Go Blu!