Onkyo giving pause to continued HD DVD support?
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Craig WB @ Feb 5th 2008 3:58AM
what EngadgetBD wasn't catching on so your gonna try EngadgetBR? Your acting like the EngadgetHD were over at your house last night pissing all over your precious HD DVD player. Your just going to have to face the fact that things aren't looking too great for HD DVD and thats what the news has been for the past.... year I guess.
They post the news not rosy HD DVD advertising from the HD DVD PR staff.... Well actually if HD DVDs PR staff sent them rosy stuff I wouldn't be surprised if it showed up.
DrXym @ Feb 5th 2008 4:11AM
It stands to reason that if the branded models are selling at firesale prices, that nobody will want to buy the no-name model. Look at Walmart's Venturer model - selling for a clearance price of $167 which is more than Toshiba A3 that its a clone of. Where the hell are the profits to be found? If you want to know why CE companies, including Chinese ones aren't exactly enthused with HD DVD, look no further than Toshiba's own predatory pricing.
Blu Ray appears more expensive by comparison because Sony hasn't cut the legs from under its partners by heavily subsidizing its own models. So Blu Ray manufacturers can make money from making Blu Ray players. Prices are dropping in a natural way through competition and economies of scale, not because a single manufacturer monopolizes the format and can set their own prices.
Hans Martin @ Feb 5th 2008 4:53AM
drXym -- my point exactly.
Toshibas problem in the long run proved to be Toshiba. While basically starting a price war on players between three different Toshiba models, other brands wisely stayed away. And that hurt HD DVD's chances at winning this format war. If you for some reason don't like Toshiba's hardware -- then your are plain out of luck if you plan on investing in HD DVD.
Toshiba has done an impressive job at saturating the market with it's players -- but Toshiba alone don't make HD DVD a success. The glaring lack of hardware support for HD DVD give customers good reason for pause.
And so far this week I'm counting 3 studios dropping HD DVD support, and it's only Tuesday!
The studio support is growing more anemic by the day to match the hardware support. This trend should be pretty evident to most consumers.
eric @ Feb 5th 2008 7:38AM
sony has undercut the legs of everyone else... they made their ps3 the cheapest blu-ray player with more features and upgradable to bd 2.0 ...
Onkyo not bringing more to Europe can make sense because it seems like hd dvd only sells really well in the united states...
I do agree with you that Toshiba undercuts everyone even Microsoft and their hd dvd player "add on" that is supposed to be cheaper than the stand alone players.
DrXym @ Feb 5th 2008 8:08AM
@eric, the PS3 originally cost $499 / $599 which is hardly cheap for a console. Now it costs $399. I agree that Sony took a financial hit to ensure the Blu Ray was in the PS3 indicating some level of subsidization at the beginning.
But these days you can find Blu Ray players from other manufacturers that cost the same or less than a PS3. For example you could buy a Samsung BD-P1400 for $299. And players will become more cheaper as the year progresses. I would not be surprised if we see multiple brand name players including new models for under $300 in 2008. We might even see a few Chinese models for even cheaper.
Toshiba is undercutting *everybody* in its desperation to shift boxes. Even no-name Chinese brands that are using the A3 reference design. There can't be any profit for any HD DVD manufacturer including Toshiba at the moment.
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 9:09AM
@ DrXym
Obviously you haven't heard, but Alco is the HD A3 manufacturer now
(part of the deal was that they could produce their own brand, Venturer, if the wanted to).
This Onkyo news is not news. It's really just some whining from the UK importer.
If Onkyo had done more than (effectively) just change the face-plate & jack the price of the HD XA2 right up & rebadge it then there might be a problem here, but there isn't cos that's about all they did.
Why bother with a rebadged and more expensive version when the real Toshiba thing is identical & cheaper?
DrXym @ Feb 5th 2008 10:46AM
Truth Teller, the point you have conveniently ignored is that Toshiba have managed to undercut a no-name player. Made by a partner no less. Tell me again, what incentive there is for ANY manufacturer, be it Chinese or otherwise to produce an HD DVD players when Toshiba so heavily subsidizes their own players that not even a no-name brand produced by a partner can make money?
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 11:00AM
DrXym the point you are studiously trying to avoid is that the Chinese manufacturer Alco are now make all the 'Toshiba' HD A3s.
Alco also make/made the Venturer.
Given that the exact same factory(s) were/are making pretty much the same player which version do you think they're going to ship the most of?
Of course Alco have chosen to concentrate their production on the name-brand player.
Don't be so ridiculous.
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 11:36AM
and look where the Venturer is selling in the UK market Truth Teller! QVC!
No person in their right mind buys from there because it's synonymous with overpriced tat and crap!
locke6854 @ Feb 5th 2008 6:05AM
why do you care? isn't it more important to just have one format?
kcmurphy88 @ Feb 5th 2008 11:40AM
One format is not important at all. In fact it is undesired in many ways, beginning with price. What I think you mean is, "isn't it important that all movies are available to all players" and on that I'd agree with you. But that does not mean picking which cartel should win.
I think anti-consumer collusion is bad, should be illegal if it isn't already, and would applaud government action banning the sale of any disk not available on both formats. Given that the government bestows copyright protection, it has every right to place limits on what one can do with it. Such as not using it to gain a player monopoly.
Vidikron (FU) @ Feb 5th 2008 3:00PM
Sorry, but the one format vs price issue simply doesn't hold any water. With one format you have more manufacturers of the same compatible hardware competing directly on the quality and features of their players. As it is now you have content in the equation which has the potential to negate some of the pricing differences. There's nothing about having a single standard that equates directly to prices being higher unless you have one company in charge of anything. That wasn't true for DVD and it won't be true for Blu-ray (or whatever).
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 7:00AM
@HD4ME
"I couldn't give a rat's ass about 1 format, I support HD DVD and anything that opposes the anti consumer monopolistic cartel that is blu ray!"
Spoken like a true zealot basket case! Did you have a mission briefing with Truth Teller and Nfinity to bleat out that one?
Nobody is forcing you to buy into anything. Spending your own cash is your own free will. No conspiracy, No subliminal messages hidden in Sony advertisements! You're quite welcome to stick with HD DVD! After all it's such a great upconverter!!!
I do find it ironic how you HD DVD soap box missionaries constantly cry about blu oppression, moaning Blu-ray is too expensive and too consumer unfriendly, yet the majority of you have an extensive collection of purchased media which obviously you got free? LMAO!
On another note, lets look at where your consumer friendly, region free, and protection hacked format has got you?
Anyone who has been following blogs on here will know, China is Truth Tellers Shangri-La! Yes, a magical place where HD DVD can be reborn and renewed for the fight against the Blu devil!....and their answer? For the princely sum of one dollar you can pick yourself up this...
http://pic.yupoo.com/flyerzeng/98307509664b/hxhhww4u.jpg
That equates to one giant raspberry and F.U from China to HD DVD!....and in the words of the TT twit himself, I'm sure these bootlegs are selling oh so very nicely long before the format is officially launched there!
...and on a final note, I'm sure Engadget are quaking in their collective shoe about losing your hit count on the site!
Izzy @ Feb 5th 2008 7:26AM
Quit Crying. If it was the other way around you'd be extolling the death of BRD and how great it is for the consumer to have to buy all of its HD hardware from a single manufacturer. The antithesis of a competitive market.
Look up the big words.
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 8:35AM
Big deal.
The Onkyo UK guys can't (or won't) compete with the Toshiba HD XE1 - the Euro/UK version of the excellent HD XA2.
The HD XE1 is currently either difficult to find in the UK or if found seriously undercuts the Onkyo's suggested retail pricing.
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 9:15AM
Mysterious vanishing messages....
It looks like HD4ME pushed someones button and suffered the wrath of a moderator
Waiting patiently now for Nfinity's cries of conspiracy!!! hehe
DrXym @ Feb 5th 2008 11:08AM
Truth Teller, that's some wonderful future you're espousing here, where not even a no-name manufacturer can compete with Toshiba because they subsidize their prices so much.
mt_rock @ Feb 5th 2008 10:02AM
Nagashima of the Director at audio system business headquarters Domestic Sales Division of the ONKYO company said
It is finally the times of the Blu-ray.
Because a place called full specifications is expected of not only a picture but also the sound quality, the Blu-ray thinks the target of the first half year to be there.
He did not talk in a topic of the HD DVD by an interview.
There does not seem to have been it from a beginning.
Truth TeIIer @ Feb 5th 2008 11:07AM
You know what, I just don't know what to say anymore. I've bent the truth, and tried my hardest to sway people to HD DVD, but I just give up now. It's over. Blu Ray just has way too much support for HD DVD to compete. The soon this is over the better. Let's pull the plug.
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 11:10AM
Who are you? and what have you done with Truth Teller?
su6oxone @ Feb 5th 2008 11:12AM
Great. You can start by never posting on EngadgetHD again.
Truth TeIIer @ Feb 5th 2008 11:15AM
I'm serious. I'm just tired of this format war. It's bull shit. I just want to try and be a sane person and just go get a Blu Ray player finally. I want Lord of the Rings on HDM, and I want Star Wars etc; HD DVD just has too little to offer now.
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 11:26AM
LOL, the real Truth Teller must be going spastic!
If it wasn't for the link to the external blog site, I wouldn't have guessed that was a different username....oh, except of course for the posts being in completely a different tone, non abusive, and doing a complete u-turn over months of spreading fuddy crap!!!
Well done to whoever! =)
Truth TeIIer @ Feb 5th 2008 11:39AM
Please just ignore and disregard my aforementioned post. I realize now realize that I AM that kind of guy, and that I'm sitting here in basement on my dad's laptop all day spreading lies about HD DVD because it is in FACT, dead.
I talked to my friend who is the president of Hollywood and he told me that HD DVDs are actually compressed Laser Discs which have been recycled, compacted, and shaped to look like your average CD. Haha, man! They pulled one over on us, especially idiots like me and Gus, and Nfinity!
kcmurphy88 @ Feb 5th 2008 11:42AM
You know, Engadget really ought to prevent this kind of lame bullsh*t.
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 11:46AM
Well I see the regular abusive TT has returned with his record-a-reply!
It would seem people round here could only take so much of your fud....
I guess this blog is not going to be so much format wars now as it is Truth Teller wars! TT and his many clones will be having a face off!
Abuse to the ready!
ProfWho @ Feb 5th 2008 11:42AM
Truth Teller you alone are a reason to back Blu-Ray. You are probably one of the most obnoxious human beings I have ever seen.
What are you 10 with an Xbox HD-DVD addon? Shouldn't you be in school?
kcmurphy88 @ Feb 5th 2008 11:44AM
I note that Denon's guy on AVS Forum indicated they were seriously considering a dual-format box.
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 11:45AM
.....and the rest of the hypocrite pretenders to be oh so balanced & reasonable about all of this little war (whilst keeping resolutely one-eyed & Blu) start to chime in.
Kind of late in the day for that sort of BS 'prof'.
GFY.
ProfWho @ Feb 5th 2008 11:48AM
The above comment is why you should keep internets away from children.
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 11:52AM
I think that's the whole point TT
If you didn't spout crap like branding PS3 owners as Blu-ray.com morons/kiddies then you might get serious responses out of people.
Treat others how you expect to be treated yourself eh?
Most of the time you write comments like a spoilt child and that is how you're being treated now.
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 11:47AM
They spoke about seperates before - I wonder if this means their profile 2.0 problems are over & they are going to can their much delayer Blu-ray 'do-it-all' standalone?
I did read that Samsung got by several issues thanks to the HD DVD hardware their dual player (obviously) had built-in.
(now wouldn't that be ironic?
Profile 2.0 can only be done practically if you incorporate HD DVD!?)
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 12:01PM
..and which issues would those be? Sorry if you're going to bend the truth(?) then back it up with some proof or explanation instead of a rudimentary "magic Toshiba...erm...stuff fixed...erm...something!"
and isn't Denon way out of the majority of the HD DVD buyers price bracket? Hasn't this been your whole spiel for months on end? HD DVD = affordability! Not that there is much difference in price nowadays but if your average buyer moans about shelling out extra cash for Blu then they sure as hell aren't going to shell out for a top of the range Denon!
wreckedchevy @ Feb 5th 2008 12:05PM
on the same forum denonjeff mentioned that they didn't currently have plans for a profile2.0 player since the spec still isn't finalized which could still lead to problems for players listed as profile 2 upgradeable... very scary... i'll buy a blu player eventually but they really need to get there hardware together first.
flipah @ Feb 5th 2008 11:51AM
Yay! Finally! Truth Teller is actually telling a Truth ;-D
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 11:51AM
@ DrXym
....and this differs from the Blu-ray situation where the BDA now openly advise people that the only 'safe' Blu-ray player to buy is the PS3 how, exactly?
They can give other branded stuff away with some brands of HD TV but that's not a sale (and they sure as hell have been mightily reluctant to let anyone in on that breakdown)
DrXym @ Feb 5th 2008 2:53PM
Complete twaddle. No one is advising people buy a PS3 unless they absolutely want 1.1 or 2.0 features. There is nothing unsafe about buying a Blu Ray player right now. It will continue to play Blu Ray discs for as long as the format exists.
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 11:54AM
@ D@n
Sneer at QVC all you like but they obviously are a growing branch of UK retail.
The Venturer is an HD A3 anyways
(and the HD A3 is a very well reviewed player).
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 12:07PM
LMAO, don't talk complete crap. QVC has been an arse end channel for years on UK satellite and digital TV lost in many shopping channel clones.
No amount of you hyping it up is going to change that. They sell way overpriced tat and attract impulse buyers.
Growing market? LOL!
Don't think just because you live in the UK that no-one else who graces this site doesn't either.
Enough with your BS
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 12:20PM
Nothing being spun here D@n.
It's a fact that Denon said they were having serious problems getting
profile 1.0 discs and players to work properly with profile 2.0 discs
& players.
This is what they said -
*quote
====================================================================================
JT: Most likely. I haven't seen it in true operation yet; once I get
it, obviously, I'll know. But that's the premise. So you can have
running pictures of the director, of the actors doing commentary or
whatever other material the studio feels that they want to give you
to make it a truly interactive experience. After that, it's standard
Blu-ray.
But there is a possibility and this is maybe not so public
knowledge that when these discs come out that fit this new profile,
they may not work properly with the Profile 1.0 players.
Q: Really?
JT: Its a possibility, and thats why were working very hard to
make sure that our products will be okay with any previous discs and
new discs.
http://www.listenup.com/content/partner_stores/denon/talmadge.aug.07.php
************************************************************************************
The point being that even a very high-end player (with presumably
ever technical advanrtage possible) was having big problems in Aug
2007 - and is - still - being repeatedly delayed.
If a Denon can't get it to work right, at the level of component &
cost they operate at, then what chance the mass-market players?
Daewoo profile 2.0 anyone?!
LMAO
.....and you're tragically misinformed about QVC.
They are seeing substantial & growing sales year on year whether you like it or not.
*quote
QVC UK is the largest TV shopping channel in Britain with net sales of 331 million
in 2006.
http://www.sourcewire.com/releases/rel_display.php?relid=35862&hilite=
TruthCommenter @ Feb 5th 2008 12:34PM
TruthTeller: "They are seeing substantial & growing sales year on year"
HD-DVD via Monty Python
Customer: I wish to complain about this HD-DVD player what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.
Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Toshiba...
What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
C: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad.
'E's format is dead, that's what's wrong with it!
O: No, no, 'e's uh,... red studios are resting.
C: Look, matey, I know a dead format when
I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
O: No no reds not dead, he's, he's restin'!
Remarkable format, HD-DVD, idn'it, ay?
Beautiful picture!
C: The picture don't enter into it.
It's format is stone dead.
O: Nononono, no, no! 'red camp's resting!
C: All right then, if their restin',
I'll wake him up!
Ello, Mister Warner! I've got a lovely HD-DVD
player for you to show your movies...
O: (owner hits the player) There, it's playing!
C: No, you stuck in an old Warner release!
O: I never!!
C: Yes, you did!
O: I never, never did anything...
C: (yelling and hitting the player repeatedly)
'HD-DVD!!!!!
Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing!
This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Takes disk out of the player and thumps
it on the counter. Throws it up in the
air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
C: Now that's what I call a dead format.
O: No, no.....red's stunned!
C: STUNNED?!?
O: Yeah! Warner and Fox stunned it,
just as HD-DVD was wakin' up!
Cutting edge formats stun easily, major.
C: Um...now look...now look, mate,
I've definitely 'ad enough of this.
That format is definitely deceased,
and when I purchased this player
not 'alf an hour ago, you assured
me that its total lack of movies was
due to it bein' tired and shagged out
following a prolonged format war.
O: Well, red's...it's, ah...probably
pining for upscaled SD-DVDs.
C: PININ' for upscaled SD-DVDs?!?!?!?
What kind of talk is that?, look,
why did HD-DVD fall flat on it's
back the moment I got this player home?
O: HD-DVD prefers upscaling SD-DVDs!
Remarkable player, id'nit, squire?
Lovely picture
C: Look, I took the liberty of googling
this HD-DVD player when I got it home,
and I discovered the only reason that it
had been sitting on your shelf in first
place was that it had been DUMPED there.
(pause)
O: Well, o'course it was dumped there!
If I hadn't lowered the price, these HD-DVD
players wouldn;t sell and HD-DVD would never
take off. VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
C: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this format wouldn't
"voom" if you put four million
volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
O: No no! 'E's pining!
C: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on!
This format is no more!
It has ceased to be!
'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
'E's a stiff! Bereft of life,
'e rests in peace!
If you hadn't discounted the players,
the format'd be pushing up the daisies! '
Is metabolic processes are now
'istory! 'E's off the twig!
'E's kicked the bucket,
'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil,
run down the curtain and
joined the bleedin'
choir invisibile!!
THIS IS AN EX-FORMAT!!
(pause)
O: Well, I'd better replace
it with a BluRay, then.
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 12:38PM
Jeez.
Another ruining of a great gag/sketch.
Typical Blu-ray unimaginative idiocy.
Just like how all the Blu-bots suddenly found a reheating of someone else's gag (Downfall) staggeringly funny the 3rd time around.
TruthCommenter @ Feb 5th 2008 1:05PM
TruthTeller: "Downfall staggeringly funny the 3rd time around"
Yes, Ahhahaahaha,
That really is a funny clip.
For those that haven't seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB2e7pfZmGA
Fiddlesworth @ Feb 5th 2008 12:32PM
The BDA don't openly advise people to buy any particular player.
They advise people to buy the player that suits their needs. Most only care about watching the high-def movie.
D@n @ Feb 5th 2008 1:05PM
@Truth Teller
That Denon article only states they are still doing compatibility testing on "possible problems" and you spin it up as "serious problems". Can't you write ANYTHING without adding a dose of BS?
Considering that article is 5 months old, I'd be more interested in hearing what their current standpoint is seeing how support of HD DVD has changed a lot between then and now.
Again with the QVC hype! QVC like any of those home shopping channels market a wide range of products, overpriced, and targeted at impulse buyers! You also have to consider that the Venturer would be on a rotating sales pitch and shown with as much regularity as you coming out with some common sense!
It was announced to be sold at 100 and they're currently selling it for 206! So again, Toshiba has undercut another manufacturer which traditionally should of been a lot cheaper! I hardly see the phones jammed ordering that one.
Toshiba are doing no more than strangling their own market.
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 2:03PM
D@N the Denon quote says they are "working very hard" on the problems and their player has been repeatedly delayed.
If pointing that out is just spin to you then you carry on, I think the repeated delays themselves speak volumes - and set against the BDA comments and thar whole 'they knew what they were getting into' outlook it makes a lot of sense.
You can carry on playing all of that down if you like, others can and will draw their own conclusions.
.....and whether you like QVC or not is hardly the issue; they are clearly tapping into a fair sized section of the UK retail market.
DrXym @ Feb 5th 2008 1:12PM
Truth Teller, your denial is pathetic.
The simple fact is Toshiba have undercut a no-name player. You claim it doesn't matter because Alco makes Toshiba and Venturer models. IT DOES MATTER. Alco spent good money, probably millions to licence A3 technology, manufacture, ship, market and support a player under their own brand. They spent that money only to be stabbed in the back by Toshiba who have undercut their model with the real A3.
Unless Toshiba have personally compensated Alco / Venturer for all of the unsold players they now have sitting in warehouses, all the lost sales, there is absolutely no way you can pretend this is a good thing. It doesn't matter either that Alco produces A3 players for Toshiba since the means of gathering revenue is different. Alco wouldn't even have bothered with their own model if it was more profitable to knock out players for Toshiba.
And it illustrates how rotten the HD DVD manufacturing market is. How can anyone, be it Onkyo or Alco produce an HD DVD player and make a profit when Toshiba is desperately slashing prices to get rid of its stock? Even worse when Toshiba will stick it to a partner to save their own skin.
su6oxone @ Feb 5th 2008 1:23PM
Moderators,
You really have let this board descend into a ridiculous parody by continuing to tolerate Truth Teller and his coninued flaming and derogatory posts that have long ceased to have any value, purported or otherwise. This guy needs to be banned asap.
MI @ Feb 5th 2008 2:06PM
What's the big deal. Wasn't this just a re branded toshiba? I'm pretty sure they're still supporting HDVD.
Truth Teller @ Feb 5th 2008 2:11PM
@ su6oxone
Pathetic.
Where were you & your snythetic outrage last week when one of you ignorant cretin chums was calling me a c*nt here, hmmmm?
Or where is the call to the mods for the cretins trashing the site with their drearily unimaginative & boring mimicking my handle or following me around like a couple (or is it the same fool?) of stalking village idiots?
Yeah, go cry to the mods; you be sure to tell them the whole story
(and while you're at it - yeah right - get them to check out some IP addresses and see about banning whoever is using multiple accounts to prat about, eh?).