Logitech needs to fix the Harmony
by Ben Drawbaugh 
posted Dec 18th 2007 at 4:11PM
- Wizards: The 880 is so easy to setup that anyone can do it, but it is too difficult to customize. Sure, it's possible, but the wizard approach that works so well for the initial setup, is nothing but irritating when trying to make simple changes.
- Flat buttons: The buttons flat, all shaped the same which makes them hard to find in the dark, and because they're right next to each other, it's way to easy to accidentally hit the guide button when you meant to hit skip, for example.
- Discrete codes: Now for the biggest one, the Harmony doesn't take advantage of discrete codes by default, but instead uses the almost helpless help feature. Discrete codes are available from manufactures for most gear and allow a remote to send a signal for ON instead of toggle on/off. This is really important for macros that turn on multiple devices because when they get out sync -- and it happens -- sending a discrete off to everything will ensure everything is off, rather than just switching from the current state. Commenters have pointed out that it's possible to configure them yourself.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
RAC @ Feb 13th 2008 2:48PM
I read somewhere that the Harmony remotes do not have a "." or "-" key for selecting the digital equivalent for a channel on the TV (7.001, for example). On one non-Harmony universal remote that I own, I use the ">" key for that purpose. I know that you can usually use the channel up/down keys to move from the standard channel to the digital, but that is slow and cumbersome. Anyone know if there is any truth to the assertion about the missing "." or "-" or a convenient workaround, presumably programming a key from the original remote? Thx.
Andy @ Dec 18th 2007 4:21PM
Yes the wizards are annoying but the other comments are bogus. Don't like the keys on your fancy 880? Try stepping down to the 659 that has nice rounded buttons of different shapes and plenty of room between. Second, discrete codes are used, if you have discrete codes for your devices setup thats the first thing it sends out when you hit help.
Garry @ Dec 18th 2007 4:22PM
I have to agree with the first and third comments. I LOVE my 880, but that wizard is a royal PITA for power users. A 4th-grader could design a more useable system for tweaking. Initial setup is great, but don't make it a chore to customize my remote.
And that help feature really is a joke. My ideal help screen: give me 8 choices on the first menu, such as "Power Off a Device", "Change a Source on a Device", etc, for those situations where the IR signal didn't reach its target. The next menu would list the device to power off, i.e. TV, Receiver, etc. Two clicks and the problem's solved.
ryan @ Dec 18th 2007 4:21PM
Bluetooth would be nice so it would work with the worlds most popular blu-ray player.
TrentD @ Dec 18th 2007 4:36PM
I think the Onus is more on the PS3 to conform to traditional IR control methods, not on remotes to pander to the one unit that decided to use Bluetooth instead.
Wryker @ Dec 18th 2007 4:54PM
If you're referring to the PS3 you can buy an item for @$20 that'll allow you to control your PS3 w/the Harmony remote.
Vidikron (FU) @ Dec 18th 2007 5:31PM
I'm keeping my eye on the VAVE100. It's a universal remote that will have Bluetooth. Not sure how it will compare to the Harmony though.
Anyway, there are ways around the PS3 issue. A lot of people buy the Blue Wave remote from Nyko (about $15). It comes with a USB IR receiver that you can then use to control the PS3. Unfortunately, no IR solution (that I know of) will currently allow you to turn on the PS3.
Porfirio Reyes @ Dec 18th 2007 6:51PM
AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
localeye @ Dec 18th 2007 4:26PM
The same exact problem I have. I turn everything on in the morning but if my dvr happened to be on during the night it leaves my cable box on the harmony turns it off. I end up always having to turn the cable box on by itself.
Wryker @ Dec 18th 2007 4:57PM
That's an easy fix - in your set up, go to the device tab, click on your cable box and i think it's settings but you can select that it stays on ALL THE TIME regardless of setups for other devices. This is how I've been using their remotes for ohhhh 7 years and it works like a champ.
jozh @ Dec 18th 2007 4:27PM
Yes I have the 890 & I get no help from the HELP feature. I've been using it for about 4 months and only ran the wizard the 1st day(but it took multiple tries to get it set up correctly). I rarely get an out of sync issue so all in all the remote has done me right.
SuperQ @ Dec 18th 2007 4:31PM
I love my 890, but I agree.. why is it that all of these companies are using wizard dialogs for EVERYTHING. They're not an appropriate UI for all things.. Word processors are not wizards, spreadsheets are not wizards. Tomtom did the same thing with their UI.. With the original UI, I could click a bunch of checkboxes to include new language files, and then hit sync. Now I have to click through 4-5 wizard screens for EACH language.
I also agree on the discrete codes. All but my DVD player support them, it took a lot of fiddling to get my harmony to use them.. why not use discrete codes by default.
Brian @ Dec 18th 2007 4:39PM
I do agree about the remote being difficult to setup for advanced features, however, I know for a fact that discrete codes are supported, as I am using them. The issue with the discrete codes is that they must already exist in logitech's command database, and often times you must specifically change the mapping of power commands to use the discrete code (if listed and found for your device) -- they are not usually assigned by default.
Chris @ Dec 18th 2007 7:20PM
In regards to the Bluetooth mentioned. PS3 isn't the only unit to use them because the Wii does also. Which actually leaves the Xbox as the lone IR Console. But since the first thing I pick up after pushing the 880 activity for a game console is the controller, which happens to have the power button right on it, I don't really mind the lack of bluetooth at all.
Wiz @ Dec 18th 2007 4:43PM
I think you're mistaken about the Harmony remotes not supporting discrete codes. I have 3 different models of Harmony remote in three different rooms, and I have them all set up to use discrete codes.
I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think the extra step when setting it up is to tell the wizard that your remote uses a different button for each input, and also for On and Off.
It is necessary that the discrete codes for your particular device be stored in the online database, but they almost always are there already.
Also, the Tech Support folks there are super helpful, and typically are willing to make changes to your configuration if you need to tweak some settings.
Ben @ Dec 18th 2007 4:46PM
Thanks for the correction, that's good to know.
I've updated the post to reflect that although it's not the default, they can be used.
Loban @ Dec 18th 2007 4:45PM
Yup, I agree. Discrete codes ARE used. In fact, every piece of equipment in my home theater setup (TV, AV Receiver, and DVD player) all use discrete codes for power on/off and input selection. Not once does my harmony ever have to scroll through menus or toggle the power on any of my equipment. In fact, the harmony remotes will choose discrete commands over toggle/scrolling commands if discrete commands exist for your equipment. In rare instances, you have to force it to use the discrete codes. I had to do that for my Receiver. It chose the toggle on/off command as the default, but after I figured out it was doing that, I went into the power settings and told it to use discrete power on / power off commands. My equipment is ALWAYS in sync with the harmony (unless I physically push buttons on the equipment, but who does that) because of discrete commands on everything I own. I got lucky though. A friend of mine has equipment that only has non-discrete commands, and it's a real pain. In the end, if the harmony is using non-discrete codes for your equipment, it's your equipment's fault, the harmony remote's fault. Chances are if you buy name brand quality equipment (so no Hyundai or Vizio TVs), it will use discrete commands even if you have to force the harmony to use them.
That being said. I LOVE my harmony. LOVE IT!!!
Ben @ Dec 18th 2007 4:48PM
I know my equipment has discrete codes and my Harmony was not using them. I tried to edit them and was faced with Wizard hell.
Ultimately I sold the 880 on ebay after hitting guide one too many times instead of skip. If have have a TiVo you know how annoying this can be cause this mishap can cause you to leave your recorded program for live TV.
Loban @ Dec 18th 2007 4:52PM
Oh, and who's writing these articles for engadget? Do the authors do NO research into the devices and technologies they're writing about? It's obviously to any technically inclined person 2 days after playing with their harmony that discrete codes ARE used, and yet there's an entire paragraph in this article written entirely on the supposed fact that they aren't. Heck, you can even read the harmony forums and figure out that they are used.
Are we just writing tech articles based on opinion and myth now or what? I've seen several sites on engadget lately that are just plain wrong and where the commenters set the record straight.
Ben @ Dec 18th 2007 4:53PM
I had a 880 for 8 months and have owned many Pronto remotes before it.
Every piece of equipment I have except one has discrete codes and the 880 didn't use them.
Some have pointed out that it's possible to change the default settings, so I've updated the post.
Wryker @ Dec 18th 2007 4:52PM
Maybe it's a specific 800 model but my 880 (i think) does ANYthing i want. And if the POWER on doesn't work correctly (or anything else) I simply use my remote and program it. I've never had a problem. And if you want to talk about a nightmare, I purchased about 6 years ago one of their 'upper' programmable remotes to control all my stuff and that took a day and half to make one change due to all the config issues! This remote ROCKS and with the cheap $15 attachment it'll control my PS3 !!
And for those that hit the wrong button? - i feel sorry for you - i do it from feel and when in doubt - hit the backlight button.
Shape @ Dec 18th 2007 8:54PM
Unfortunately, you can't turn the PS3 on using that $20 IR adapter. The USB ports aren't powered when the PS3 is off. Ridiculous.
Loban @ Dec 18th 2007 4:56PM
Oh, and sorry to sound like a jerk there. It's just more of a pet peeve of mine when a tech article is just plain incorrect. I apologize for sounding like a jerk.
Ben @ Dec 18th 2007 4:57PM
No problem, I'm used to it. ;)
Griffon @ Dec 18th 2007 4:58PM
If I could just reorder the help menu based on the device it's on all would be well. Things generally fail in the same way all the time (due to angles or device responsiveness). We switch to the xbox and flummoxed the baby sitter for the 10th time because a input didn't fire right it should either learn or at least let me reset, that as the first thing in help.
No discreet codses and no ability to add them has always bummed me out.
Loban @ Dec 18th 2007 5:13PM
Again Griffon, read the previous comments. Harmony remotes DO use discrete codes if your equipment has them. Some equipment simply doesn't have the ability and in that case, it wouldn't be the remotes fault. If you know your equipment has discrete codes available and the remote isn't using them, you can force it to use them by going into the settings of the device in the craptastic harmony application.
In the case of discrete power on/off codes, you can go to power settings, then tell the wizard that you do have the original remote for your equipment, then tell it there's a separate button for power on and power off, then scroll through the list until you find the power on and power off commands when it asks you how you power on and power off your equipment. Yes, it's a stupid way to do it, but it works.
Search for this kind of stuff in the harmony forums. You can get pretty much any question answered if you just ask or search. Harmonies can do ANYTHING you want them to do, sometimes it's just a little tricky to figure out how to tell it what you want. But once you get it setup the right way, you'll LOVE it. That is unless it just has issues with your particular equipment, but I just got lucky with my setup in that it works perfectly with everything. But considering the thousands of devices out there, it's amazing how well they DO work.
http://forums.logitech.com/logitech?category.id=harmony_remote_controls
Seth A @ Dec 18th 2007 5:14PM
I know that it CAN use Discrete codes, but it would be nice for them to be used by default if they exist. Either way, I have the Harmony 720, kinda a step down from the 800 ones, but it solves the button problem. But the one thing I do agree on is the Setup, it would be nice to have like a "I know what I am doing" section where we can just do whatever we want. Like I would like to be able to control my lights in the "Watch DVD" mode, but not have it have to "Turn them on" when I enter the "Watch DVD" mode. Like, a picture of the remote and the ability to map each individual button would be nice, also being able to set exactly what you want to happen when you start the "Activity" without annoying Wizards would be nice. But either way, the Harmony remote is beyond awesome, and even with the things I wish it had, it is a million times better than anything else I have ever used.
Todd @ Dec 18th 2007 5:28PM
I didn't like the wizards either. I ended up selling my harmony 880 after having too much trouble with it controlling my HP RPTV. I believe the problems were not all the fault of the Harmony. The nearly unsupported HP TV is partly to blame. When I was using it the TV / AV Receiver / DVD Player were only in sync about 50% of the time. The other 50% I found that I had to go though the silly help menus. Is it working now? No. How about now, is it working now? No. What about now, is the TV on the right input now? Sheesh! I knew what was wrong, and I just wanted to fix it myself.
I could see where this would be great for my grandmother who has no idea what's going on with the remote but for me, I just wanted it to relinquish the control back to me.
I understand the idea behind the Harmony is to make it easy for novices but that just wasn't my style.
My wife didn't like it either. Even though it was similar to the TiVo remote, she still preferred the simplicity of the actual TiVo remote and would rather turn off the TV and turn off the AV receiver with two different remotes than use the Harmony.
Wryker @ Dec 18th 2007 6:54PM
Dude- peep this site: http://www.schmartz.com/main.sc;jsessionid=AFEF933E7A11E9E687F978C902F3DE7E.qscweb24?categoryId=1
Terry @ Dec 18th 2007 5:39PM
I have the 99 dollar Harmony. I have at least 20 remotes in my house. All types, sizes well you know.
I hooked up the Harmony and it got each and every component CORRECT on the first try. That has NEVER happened before. Of course I used the computer, who wouldn't. GREAT work Harmony....
Cheesehead and go PACKERS
JeffDM @ Dec 18th 2007 5:39PM
The thing I don't like is the wizards and the fact that the "program" is really a front end to a web browser, it's really a web site. Last time I did anything, the Logitech web site pointed to a version of that program that was many months old, certain third party software update tracker sites pointed to a newer one that didn't appear to be a beta, but it's still the same web-based crap.
I think I have the 696. Another thing that bugged me was that the screen could show me eight different devices, four buttons on each side, but the third item "DVD" would be the third button on both sides rather than letting me have the left side mean one device and the right side being a different device. The screen is wide enough to show the names of two different devices.
Tristan Wood @ Dec 18th 2007 5:41PM
I can't believe they are saying Harmony is the best programmable remote. RTI is 100 times better and more customizable. Sure you can't go into a store and buy one but the things work every time if they are programmed correctly. No Help button needed. I am a custom installer and would never sell a Harmony.
Joe Maki @ Dec 18th 2007 9:43PM
>>but the things work every time if they are programmed correctly.
So do the Harmonies if they are programmed correctly :)
>> I am a custom installer and would never sell a Harmony.
Tristan, what would be the point. You can't compete with price and you wouldn't be able to sell the programming. Your market is completely different. Would you use an RTI if you had to pay retail and for someone to program it for you?
Rick @ Dec 18th 2007 5:50PM
Well, I echo the article author's sentiments. I love the idea behind the Harmony 880, but I can't for the life of me get it to do what it says it will. It never, ever gets powering my TV right (on my "conventional" remotes I usually have to hold down the power button for a couple of seconds to get the power to toggle), and I'd much rather just program the remote like I did on my Onkyo receiver that I had years ago (with, by far the best learning remote I'd ever used.)
Eman @ Dec 18th 2007 8:09PM
good evening gentlemen. i was just reading the posts, and i had a couple of questions for you.
i just asked for a harmony 880 for christmas from my wife. is it really that bad of a piece of equipment? can a novice, or someone with minimal technical education program this remote and make it operate the intire system? and what are discreet codes? i have a marantz receiver, a PS3, directv hd, a cable hd/dvr, an apple 4-way hdmi switcher, and a samsung fp-t5084 plasma display. can we make the 880 operate this stuff in a non-headache sort of way?
CJ @ Dec 18th 2007 6:51PM
We've had the 880 for over a year now with a fairly standard setup (Panasonic 42" 9uk, denon receiver, Energy 5.1 speakers, Wii, Tivo, DVD player, camcorder/video-baby-monitor) and we're happy with the remote. My wife uses it no problem and our friend/babysitters can use it with a 30 sec tutorial :). My only real gripe is that there's no discrete code for the Panny 9uk display to switch between svideo and RCA (shares the same slot). That's a Panasonic issue though.
The only problem we've had is that your 1 yr old son managed to pop out two of the buttons. Super glue is your friend!
JeffDM @ Dec 18th 2007 7:08PM
Eman; I'm pretty sure you'll be OK. You would need an IR receiver add-on for the PS3 though.
Ryan @ Dec 18th 2007 6:19PM
How is this news?
Vidikron (FU) @ Dec 18th 2007 7:01PM
Nice... I didn't know about that. Looks like I may be investing in a Harmony after all. Thanks!
Kyle Heon @ Dec 18th 2007 8:29PM
While I agree that the wizards make setup fairly simple, nothing ever works quite right the first time and that is where it often gets hard.
My main complaint though is with the charging base. The three contacts cause the remote to tilt, breaking contact with one of the contacts, thus causing the remote to not charge. I have to clean the contacts bi-weekly, sometimes more often then that.
Jeromey Shannon @ Dec 18th 2007 9:36PM
Actually, the worst part of the Harmony 880 is the fact that the recharging cradle and battery will stop cooperating after a year or so. I fixed the problem by reading some blogs, and then stuffing wads of paper under the contacts in the cradle to make sure they stick out far enough, and more wads of paper into the remote to snug up the battery contacts.
Shape @ Dec 19th 2007 7:23AM
Call Logitech about the 880 not charging any more and they will send you a brand new base for it. They are aware of the issue, and they made changes to the base because of it.
drdobsg @ Dec 18th 2007 10:34PM
Just got a Harmony 720 at Costco 2 weeks ago. I agree that the wizard is annoying for customizations, but the initial setup was very easy. I haven't actually used a 880 or 890, but from looking at them in the store, I like the layout of my 720 better. The buttons aren't so close together. The wizard did use discreet codes for input modes even though my Sony TV remote only has one input selection button. As for the discrete power codes, it would be nice if the wizard used them instead of toggling, but it is easy enough to customize or just hit the help button and it should turn everything on. I actually like the help feature, it's easy enough for my wife to use. If you want to control devices, just hit the devices key then turn it on or switch inputs or whatever you may want to do.
Overall I am very pleased with my remote so far, but i would like to see some enhancements to the software, specifically in the area of customizations.
I find using http://members.harmonyremote.com slightly less annoying than the software that came with the device.
mjwedeking @ Dec 18th 2007 11:08PM
It also needs a rubberized back.
AVGuy @ Dec 18th 2007 11:42PM
I am a professional installer for 5 years now, and in my experience no major installation company uses the Harmony series. These remotes are meant for the consumer to allow for home brew "programming". While it is true that you can utilize discrete codes with a Harmony, it is not nearly as user friendly as a URC or RTI remote. As a matter of fact, URC recently released a new remote (MX-810) that uses a wizard type programming interface and it has been widely criticized by the installers in our forums. Not because it doesn't work(I actually think the software is much better than the Harmony software), but that it doesn't allow for the tweaking and customization that more open ended software can afford.
Prime @ Dec 19th 2007 8:48AM
Interesting timing, indeed. I just sent mine back.
I bought the 890 because I needed RF control over my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD and my Toshiba HD-A3.
Likes:
- Relatively elegant and comfortably ergonomic design
- Programming was easy as pie
- Color Screen
Dislikes:
- Hard to customize
- Felt like cheap plastic for its price tag
- Backlight was unresponsive (hit or miss, it hardly worked)
- RF was unusable
While I still fancy the design, the implementation has a long way to go. If I didn't need the RF capability, I'd have stepped way down the line. Perhaps a 600 series - they seem like an excellent deal for the price.
The RF implementation was absolutely awful. Lag doesn't cover it - the remote and RF unit simply didn't respond most of the time. My RF unit was roughly ten to twelve feet away from my usage position with line-of-sight save two layers of sheet rock - hardly anything outside of the norm for RF operation.
My last caveat is with the software... Why in the devil isn't it a local program instead of a web-based pile of naughty words? Logitech didn't pay me for my involvement in market research. They should take the monies they're saving and beef up their archaically slow web servers.
However, for the (retail) price of the 890, I was able to pick up a Universal MX-850 Aeros which looks, feels, and performs more expectedly like a remote with a premium price tag should.
Dillon @ Dec 18th 2007 11:56PM
How could you mistake the skip button for guide, it has a knub on it so you can tell where your finger is... just like the keyboard you used to type this article.
I've used my Harmony 880 for 2.5yrs and can honestly say its one of the best pieces of technology I've ever purchased. I can understand why the customization interface may turn off some non-tech people (I programmed my parents 570 for them), but if you consider yourself even remotely geeky, there is *NOTHING* that can't be done w/ the Harmony interface. If you spend some time to tweak the remote, you can fix pretty much every complaint I've read in this thread. Perfection comes at a cost, the wizard can probably get you to 90%, but a 100% perfect setup takes some tweaking.
scott @ Dec 19th 2007 7:57AM
"As much as we recognize Harmony as the best programmable remotes in the industry"
That statement alone qualifies this article as a joke. If you want a quality remote, step up to either URC or RTI. It amazes me how people will spend thousands on their home theater equipment but get incredibly cheap when it comes to the one device that makes using the system simple and painless.
Shape @ Dec 19th 2007 7:35AM
A properly set up Harmony does make using a Home Theater system easy and painless. I've never had an issue with mine working perfectly.
I looked up RTI remotes, and they simply don't have enough hard buttons for my liking, plus the price is absolutely outrageous.
Camperton @ Dec 19th 2007 3:28AM
I love the button action on the 880, and have become very familiar with the tactile feedback. Not sure what you guys are referring to re: the wizards but after initial setup the customization pages are pretty flexible and easy to program imho. I don't know, once you get the hang of it these things are shockingly easy to program just so.