Format War: Interactivity vs HD supplements

by Ben Drawbaugh, posted Dec 5th 2007 at 10:21AM

Next Tuesday, the biggest dual format HD release since 300 hits the streets; and once again, we just can't wait to compare red vs blu. For the most part, Warner has always offered the same content on both format, and if anything, Blu-ray fans have complained that Warner doesn't take advantage of Blu-ray's extra capacity. Well, with Order of the Phoenix, Warner has pulled out the stops and has pitted interactivity vs HD supplemental video, because while the HD DVD version includes Warner's IME and web content, the Blu-ray version includes HD supplements and a 44 minute high-def TV special called, The Hidden Secrets of Harry Potter -- that was left out of the HD DVD version completely. The other big difference enabled by Blu-ray's additional capacity is an extensive list of foreign language surround sound tracks and sub-titles -- at the same time the HD DVD is a combo disc without the $10 premium. So dual format owners will have to choose between interactivity and HD supplements -- or maybe they'll just choose ~~to save $5 and go with~~ the Blu-ray version. We don't know about anyone else, but we can't wait to see what Nielsen VideoScan results have to say about this.

Read - HighDefDigest HD DVD review
Read - HighDefDigest Blu-ray review

Filed under: Blu-ray, HD DVD

Tags: format war, FormatWar, Harry Potter, HarryPotter, ime, Order of the Phoenix, OrderOfThePhoenix, Warner, Warner Home Video, WarnerHomeVideo

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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)

Neutral

ryan @ Dec 5th 2007 10:30AM

It's safe to say Harry Potter will sell roughly double on Blu-ray due to there being 2.7 million players vs 750,000 HD DVD players.

I personally will be getting the HD DVD version simply because it is a combo format.

Highly Ranked

Mikael.H @ Dec 5th 2007 10:35AM

Same here. Looking forward to testing all the new stuff. Cheerio! /M

Neutral

Kevin Murphy @ Dec 5th 2007 10:47AM

If there are really 2.7 million BD players and 750K HD players then BD should sell 7 out of 9 copies. More even because people who own both players might opt for this film in BD for the extras.

So, if Blu-ray doesn't sell 4-1, it's a failure!!!!

Absurd? Of course. But so is most of this drivel. I've seen more thought in a pep rally flyer.

There are about 1 million standalone-equivalent BD players (taking PS3 as 1/4) versus 750K HDDVD. Things break 60-40 on average, as you might expect.

Neutral

Mike @ Dec 6th 2007 12:47AM

I am buy ing HP on HD DVD at walmart...so there is a sale that won't count. Best to wait for numbers from WB.

Neutral

David Batten @ Dec 7th 2007 1:26PM

maybe not so safe say. HD-DVD is higher ranked on Amazon's bestseller list for Phoenix right now. (#37 vs #55). DVD is still blowing the other two out of the water at #3 and #6 (two disc and widescreen editions, respectively)

Neutral

Mikael.H @ Dec 15th 2007 9:50AM

Testing all the cool features on the HD DVD version that is!

/Mike

Highly Ranked

Spiza @ Dec 5th 2007 10:39AM

This is exactly why I think more space is better. Fewer discs for TV shows and movies like Lord of the Rings. You can't tell me there wouldn't be a difference between an extended cut Lord of the Rings movie on 30GB HD DVD vs 50GB Blu-Ray. An HD DVD version would probably be forced to 2 discs.

That being said, waiting on more word of the 51GB triple layer HD DVDs. Until they drop into stores, I'll still be waiting.

Neutral

h4ldol @ Dec 5th 2007 10:43AM

This really exemplifies the differences between HD DVD and blu-ray. Blu-ray is the choice for home theater enthusiasts with some cash to burn, who are willing and able to pay a premium for 1080p/24 video and lossless audio, whereas the HD DVD fans cater to those who are, or hope to be, upwardly mobile and cannot easily enter the format war without the availability of $100 players, and will gladly accept compromises to video (1080i/60 players) and audio (shameful lack of lossless audio on even the biggest HD DVD exclusive releases like Transformers and Shrek3) in order to achieve that price point. They are, however, aware of these compromises and therefore tout the few dubious "advantages" of HD DVD, namely the "finished spec" (right, like the triple layer HD DVD) and the "interactivity" (please send me personalized advertisements and give me access to transient extras available only online). Bottom line is that HD DVD is weak, continues to suffer from the paltry capacity and bandwidth, and is simply a dead and obsolete format already. The blu-ray juggernaut can't be stopped... at least not by HD DVD.

Highly Ranked

ryan @ Dec 5th 2007 10:53AM

h4ldol, "blu-ray supporters have money to burn", too bad the great majority of the buying public doesn't.

If you want your juggernaut to have complete control of every facet of entertainment then they need to lower prices further. Get the sales of standalones going to match that of HD DVD or even beat it so this isn't a game machine against a true standalone.

As of now, no matter how many times you or BDA say it, HD DVD is not dead or obsolete.

Neutral

pellucidity @ Dec 5th 2007 10:53AM

I agree - HD DVD partisans point to the high cost of standalone Blu-ray players and worries about profile 2.0, but ignore the triple layer uncertainty. It just seems dishonest, given that the best and most popular Blu-ray player is still the PS3, which ought to be future-proof. Jokes aside, it's got a lot more to offer than just movie playback.

The lack of lossless audio on all those HD DVD exclusives also annoys me - are we to suppose that the fancy interactive features the advertise take up too much of the limited space, so when there is no Blu version to compare it to, they will be dropped? I certainly care more about the audio and video in the movie than anything else.

Highest Ranked

chad @ Dec 5th 2007 11:06AM

I'm all for you supporting your format of choice, but lets get one thing straight. The 1080i60 output format for film based material only compromises video quality if you compromised on your TV. The best TVs do proper 1080i film mode deinterlacing. If you purchased a nice TV, then you don't need to overcompensate by buying the most expensive player on the market.

If you want to knock the A2/A3 for anything, knock it because you need the best possible equipment to utilize its full potential. You cannot get Dolby TrueHD out of the box unless you have a HDMI equipped receiver. You need a TV which does pick up a 3:2 cadence on 1080i material and usually only the more expensive sets accomplish this feat.

All that said, the A2/A3 is an exceptional value at $100-$170. This war would be over in a heartbeat if the Blu-ray camp could get players out with as much bang for your buck.

Highest Ranked

wewa @ Dec 5th 2007 11:49AM

The post from h4Idol 'exemplifies' a biased, uninformed idiot.

He must not have much experience with BD/HD players or has them connected to a 20" LCD...

I have both BD and HD and it is pretty much the opposite of what he is touting here.
Better video and audio with HD, and smoother functionality, with fast remote button presses, no freezes/lockups, ethernet on back, standardized feature sets on all players, and value priced. Not to mention the region coding and heavier DRM bullshit on the BD platform. Of course, brought to you by the same Sony that previously put rootkits on their software for the enjoyment of their 'loyal' customers...

I paid $450 for my BD player and even though I have firmware updated it thru the hassle of burning CDs to do so, it still disappoints on my 50" PDP via HDMI.

if more 'enthusiasts with cash to burn' would take the time to read and learn from amazon reviews, avsforum, and such, instead of playing games on their overpriced, overhyped PS3, we wouldn't need to digress to such bullshit all the time.

'juggernaut' my ass...

Neutral

Greg @ Dec 5th 2007 10:44AM

Seems like a no brainer to me, Blu Ray all the way for exclusive content and HD bonuses :)

Neutral

Truth Teller @ Dec 5th 2007 12:41PM

*quote*

Seems like a no brainer to me, Blu Ray all the way for exclusive content and HD bonuses *

===============================================================================

But I thought all you Blu-ray fans thought the main feature was 'everything'?

I though you'd all chimed in to say what a waste & how unwanted extras are?

Neutral

Tim @ Dec 6th 2007 1:10PM

"Seems like a no brainer to me, Blu Ray all the way for exclusive content and HD bonuses :)"

But what about the 'exclusive' content on the HD DVD? Like in-vision commentary (which I have to say I've been enjoying a lot on the Potter series, and would seriously miss this kind of feature on Blu-Ray), and the web enabled features?

The only exclusive content Blu-Ray has is an HD documentary.

Oh and just to point out something. The UK releases of all the potter films not only came out earlier, but they are also just HD DVD. Not combo discs. Just standard 30GB HD DVD discs. The UK OotP is in fact 2x 30GB HD DVD discs. Film on one disc (with in-vision commentary, web content & community screening), and extras on the other.

Have to say though that in-vision commentary really does take commentaries to another level. It's not just a video of someone chatting either. The commentaries are interactive (can skip to the next relevant part, select additional information for particular scenes, etc). Being that this is overlaid on the HD film, that technically makes this an HD extra too, not just SD ;-)

Neutral

Ben @ Dec 5th 2007 10:48AM

Kevin, did you comment on the right post? Cause I didn't see where you mentioned if you preferred to have interactivity or HD supplements.

Neutral

JMP @ Dec 5th 2007 10:49AM

"We don't know about anyone else, but we can't wait to see what Nielsen VideoScan results have to say about this."

The only way the numbers mean anything other than one format having more discs sold than another is if you know who are dual format owners, which we don't (at least as far as I know).

Neutral

JimC @ Dec 5th 2007 3:06PM

Why need money to burn? Amazon had Samsung BDP-1400 for $349 and free shipping. Plus, what kind of high def TV are people using if they can't afford a bluray player at $349? The HDTV is the greater barrier to HD than the players....

Neutral

Kevin Murphy @ Dec 5th 2007 10:53AM

Now, isn't the HD DVD version a combo, containing the DVD version as well? Shouldn't that count as an "Extra" for people with kids and a mix of HD and SD sets? Especially for a family film like this one -- it's the kids who will be watching this over and over, and on BD they can't do it on their own DVD player.

Highly Ranked

Ben @ Dec 5th 2007 10:55AM

Kevin,
Yeah it's a combo. I mentioned that fact, including the point that although it is a combo it doesn't cost the extra $10 that combos usually cost.

Highly Ranked

Kevin Murphy @ Dec 5th 2007 11:16AM

ben--

I noted that, in passing, you said it was a combo. But my argument is that that leaves a whole film version, which has much more practical use than any fluffnik TV special, listed as an afterthought rather than a main selling point for families on a family film.

"Combo" is an HD DVD-exclusive extra as much as web content is. So the main thrust of your post: that BD has more/better extras ignores the main extra on the HD DVD disk: your kids can enjoy it without using the adult's complicated HD system.

Now, I understand that this is a point that is consistently lost on single people, who view combos as a waste, but anyone with kids knows the importance of avoiding TV conflicts. I invite you to go back and re-read the Paramount statement on why they went to HD DVD. "Family friendly" vs "aimed at gamers."

Just goes to show you that one person's "why bother?" is another person's important "Extra."

Neutral

Kenzo @ Dec 5th 2007 2:58PM

Ben

HDDVD & BD cost "the same" for this movie. Please change your post.

Why is it that whenever you make an error in your post and you're corrected, it's like you're always hesitant to make the change? And why is it that all your "errors" always have a pro BD slant? In this case you suggest that BD costs less...which is a straight up lie.

Neutral

sn1per @ Dec 5th 2007 10:55AM

Exclusive HD content and $5 cheaper, or $5 more and less HD content, but i can enter some pointless online chatroom while watching? Yea, thats a really hard decision to make there.

Highly Ranked

haveacoke1886 @ Dec 5th 2007 11:01AM

Actually the post is wrong, Warner is pulling a fast one and having both HD versions with the same MSRP of $35.99 or you can get them at Amazon.com for $24.95.

http://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Order-Phoenix-Standard/dp/B000W7F50Q/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1196870369&sr=8-4

Looks like HD DVD definitely has the better deal here.

Neutral

ryan @ Dec 5th 2007 11:06AM

One thing to note, I'm sure the blu-boys are going nuts over the fact that the HD DVD got highly recommended and the blu-ray simply got recommended.

Highly Ranked

WallyB @ Dec 5th 2007 11:12AM

Let's clarify a bit here: both versions are selling for the same price on amazon ($24.95) and both versions got 5 stars for audio and video quality in the review.

Sounds like a coin flip to dual-format owners to me. I own both and don't care about 1080p extras OR online chatting. I'd say the combo format it the selling point to me - loan to friends or let the kids watch it in the playroom.

Highly Ranked

longhairbilly @ Dec 5th 2007 11:28AM

Buying the HD DVD version myself..

Neutral

AbbadonTD @ Dec 5th 2007 11:29AM

This is a big step here, since unlike 300, there are real differences in the release. There is alot to say about Dual format for some and Blu features this, but I think the real answer is this. Who will buy a player for this movie? I don't think those with the money see this as an important decision film. 300 was, this really is not. I think the standard DVD will outsell both HD formats easily. So with that, there are more blu rays out there, Kids have PS3's, and if they have Xboxes, less have HDDVD drives for them. Face it, its a movie marketed to a young crowd. We should see this movie fall right on the lines with players, its not going to be a chapter in the story.

Highly Ranked

Chris @ Dec 5th 2007 11:35AM

Re: Chad

The problem is, most new displays DO NOT deinterlace film correctly, even today.

From the annual 1080p roundup and evaluation (published this month)
http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1107hook2/

"The failure rate for proper 3:2 processing is still very poor at 81.09 percent."

That's pretty bad...

Even worse (although admittedly only affecting a small number of people, mostly front projection types) is that even if you have a display that can deinterlace 1080i 3:2 correctly, its still going to show it as 1080p/60. None of the set will create the original 24Hz that almost all of the content originated (1080p/24 is generally how movies are stored on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray disks)

Highly Ranked

chad @ Dec 5th 2007 12:36PM

I'm aware that most TV's fail to deinterlace 1080i film material properly. That's why I specifically said the "best TV's" in my previous post. The point h4idol tried to make was that 1080i60 output is inherently inferior to 1080p. I just pointed out that he must have made some compromise on his TV since he requires this 1080p functionality. Keep in mind that the 1080p60 output from the player very likely comes from a deinterlaced 1080i60 signal. You may have the same problem with the player as you have with the TV.

You claim that 1080i60 is always deinterlaced to 1080p60 is wrong. Pioneer displays can take the 1080i60 sigal, detect the 3:2 cadence, and triple the frame rate for 72 Hz output. I suspect the next generation of 120 Hz LCD's will have a similar feature for 1080i with 5:5 pulldown.

Neutral

Joe Maki @ Dec 5th 2007 11:35AM

>> or maybe they'll just choose to save $5 and go with the Blu-ray version

Price is my deciding factor. I don't use interactive features and hardly every watch additional content.

Highest Ranked

wysiwyg @ Dec 5th 2007 12:04PM

I can't believe how misinformed so many of you are. WB is selling both the HD DVD version and blu-ray version FOR THE SAME PRICE. There's no "Save $5 more".

Neutral

okeygrak @ Dec 5th 2007 12:00PM

Highdefdigest claims that the extra features on the BR are in High-Def, whereas the HD-DVD are encoded in standard-def.

So I can get an additional 44 minute HD feature, plus all the rest of the extras in HD; or I can pay $5 more and play the disc simultaneously with a relative in North Dakota while sending text message s on my "mobile device".

Neutral

Marshall @ Dec 5th 2007 12:00PM

I don't want either, just give me the movie Superbit-style.

Marshall
-------
The Real HT Info Podcast

Highly Ranked

Cam @ Dec 5th 2007 12:06PM

I don't know where you looked, but Amazon.com has both for the same price (as of the writing of this comment)...so what's this $5 difference you speak of?

HD DVD - http://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Order-Phoenix-Standard/dp/B000W7F50Q/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1196874259&sr=1-4

BD - http://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Order-Phoenix-Blu-ray/dp/B000W7GFG4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1196874259&sr=1-5

Highly Ranked

JayHDDVD @ Dec 5th 2007 12:08PM

You know what, after reading ignornat BR people posts, it makes me want to but this on HD DVD even with my new Panasonic DMP-BD30 Bluray machine waiting for a test drive.

BD only people are snobs... not all but damn well most.

Unlikely to happen, but if HD DVD ever wins, I am going to pee myself laughing. I'll make sure to stand over my BR collection for the event haha.

Highest Ranked

Leonardo DiCrapio @ Dec 5th 2007 12:10PM

"Blu-ray is the choice for home theater enthusiasts with some cash to burn, who are willing and able to pay a premium for 1080p/24 video and lossless audio, whereas the HD DVD fans cater to those who are, or hope to be, upwardly mobile and cannot easily enter the format war without the availability of $100 players, and will gladly accept compromises to video (1080i/60 players) and audio (shameful lack of lossless audio on even the biggest HD DVD exclusive releases like Transformers and Shrek3) in order to achieve that price point."

HD DVD is the choice for consumers who don't want to fork over at least $300 into what could be a dying format. $100 is a reasonable price IMHO -- I bought in for $90 with a RCA HD-DVD player that has analog audio outputs off of EBay. Transformers or Shrek3 are not available on Blu-Ray. I will enjoy Batman Begins in Dolby TrueHD, though. I will also Netflix Blood Diamond (and maybe Phantom of the Opera because both it and BD are in Dolby TrueHD), too.

Blu-Ray arguably has a better slate of new releases with Casino Royale, Ratatouille, and Pirates of the Caribbean. Cars didn't sell well which indicates day-and-date releases are best for both formats going forward. I can get the Prestige and both Underworld movies from Xploited Cinema.

The number of titles available for both is pretty anemic (about 375 Blu-Ray versus about 345 HD-DVD -- a 52%/48% split), but is fairly even.

"Bottom line is that HD DVD is weak, continues to suffer from the paltry capacity and bandwidth, and is simply a dead and obsolete format already. The blu-ray juggernaut can't be stopped... at least not by HD DVD."

Both formats are weak right now. Just because Blu-Ray sales are less weak doesn't make it a juggernaut. Less than 200,000 stand-alone Blu-Ray players sold through Black Friday. Sony has sold 100,000 Blu-Ray players (Model No. BDP-S300 @ $500). That means that Panasonic, Sharp, Pioneer, Samsung, and Philips are fighting over a few scraps (less than 100,000 between all five manufacturers) -- Ouch! Some juggernaut, h4idol.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12012.cfm

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6498141.html

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/936

Neutral

h0mi @ Dec 5th 2007 1:38PM

Someone made a remark on HDD saying that 3% of the market was non Sony players. It sounded like he pulled that out of thin air but I guess not!

Highly Ranked

Trond M. @ Dec 5th 2007 12:11PM

"or maybe they'll just choose to save $5 and go with the Blu-ray version"

Am I missing something? Who's selling the Blu-ray version cheaper than the HD DVD-version? Everywhere I've looked, they're priced the same as each other, and the MSRPs are identical as well.

Did you perhaps mean "DVD-version"?

BTW: The European HD DVD version of this title uses two non-combo-discs, and it's got all the extras in HD. The missing 44 minute feature (which IMO isn't worth spending 44 minutes on) is included as well.

Neutral

theefman @ Dec 5th 2007 12:15PM

The ignorance, hatred and downright stupidity of the blu bois is still surprising. Do all you guys go to a 'HD DVD hate camp" or something? Or is there a secret memo sent out by Sony to all the Phase Hydra members?

Highest Ranked

Cam @ Dec 5th 2007 12:18PM

By the way, high-def digest just reviewed both version of the film, and BOTH got 5 star ratings on Video and Audio:

HD DVD - http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1122/harrypotter_orderofthephoenix.html
BD - http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1121/harrypotter_orderofthephoenix.html

At the expense of coming off sounding like HDPurist or h4idol, I'll say no more

Highly Ranked

lucyfan62 @ Dec 5th 2007 12:20PM

Finally! I big title that will allow the two camps to fairly compare sales figures!

Neutral

Truth Teller @ Dec 5th 2007 12:31PM

There is no "uncertainty" about any of the triple layer HD DVD discs (and yest there is more than 1 type).

To be able to be called an HD DVD disc they have to work on all HD DVD players.

The Twin format (HD DVD & SD DVD on one side) is already in my manual as a certified type of HD DVD disc.

The 51gb TL disc just got final DVD Forum approval and so must work with all HD DVD players - otherwise it's not an HD DVD disc.

Still, why let the facts get in the way of the Blu-ray BS spreading?

Neutral

Truth Teller @ Dec 5th 2007 12:33PM

BTW expect to see similar to what happened with '300'.

A tailor-made movie (for the 'PS3 demographic') that disappointed the BDA enormously.

Neutral

Truth Teller @ Dec 5th 2007 12:35PM

The always hoped for tidal wave of Blu-ray movie sales just never quite seems to happen.

They thought it was on the cards several times since the PS3 launched and every time it has disappointed

Highest Ranked

theefman @ Dec 5th 2007 12:43PM

And for those blu kool aid drinkers going on about how blu ray is superior,here is a comment from a professional review of the HD DVD version:

"Had the HD DVD only included the above extras, it would have been satisfying enough. But there are also a trio of additional web-enabled features that further distinguish 'Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix' as truly cutting-edge when it comes to next-gen interactivity.

Live Community Screening - A true high-def first, this new feature allows multiple owners of the 'Order of the Phoenix' HD DVD to simultaneously watch the film via their own individual web-connected players. Playback is controlled by a single "host" user, who initiates the invitation-only viewing, and can control the film by pausing and playing the feature on everyone else's machines. Participants can also text between their remote devices, creating a virtual "live chat" environment while they watch. Unfortunately, since 'Order of the Phoenix' has not yet streeted as I write this, I couldn't try out this feature as no one I know actually has the disc, but it certainly looks cool.

Share Your Favorite Scenes - Using Warner's standard HD DVD bookmarking function, you can assemble a list of your favorite scenes from the film, and share them with other registered users online.

Downloadables - Since no Harry Potter experience would be complete without the hawking of products, here you can buy various downloadables, including ringtones for your phone, and various desktop patterns and widgets"

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1122/harrypotter_orderofthephoenix.html

blu ray has its plus points over HD DVD but to claim HD DVD is inferior when it can deliver 5 star audio and video and exclusive innovative features is pure fanboy talk.

Neutral

Sean @ Dec 5th 2007 12:52PM

I am getting the HD-DVD version. Here is why:

Bookmarks
Community Feature

thats it :) It only takes 1 thing.

Back when the Departed came out, I chose the BD version of the PCM track. Since then, TrueHD encodes are on par with LPCM.

Neutral

Kevin Murphy @ Dec 5th 2007 2:09PM

TrueHD and LPCM are the same thing after TrueHD decompresses. That's why it's called "lossless." Both result in 48KHz/24-bit/channel sound. Of course, if you're listening through your TV or cheap speakers, there's more loss there than you can shake a stick at.

Low Ranked

WTF @ Dec 5th 2007 12:57PM

The Blu-Ray version has ALL of it's supplements in HD (as opposed to the HD DVD version which has them in SD only and are missing a 44 minute special).

Blu-Ray has 73 minutes of HD footage vs. 29 minutes of SD only for the HD DVD version = Blu-Ray wins hands down.

Also, Blu-Ray has better audio due to an Uncompressed PCM audio soundtrack vs. HD DVD's Dolby True HD which is boggled down by dialog normalization.

Neutral

Wryker @ Dec 5th 2007 2:07PM

Ok folks - how bout discussing more of why the BD is better than the HDDVD SET - NOT the formats. I've ordered the HDDVD set since I have 2 HD-A2's and a PS3. I only own, currently, BD titles however we can't watch the BD titles anyplace but one room. I'm not going to buy another PS3 or BD player (too expensive) but I did buy 2 HD-A2's for $100 each. This way, we can watch the HP collection in any room. AND when I do get a new HDDVD player it'll be one that supports 1080p and move my HD-A2 to the bedroom. If the PS3 dropped to $200, then I'd get one.

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