Last week when the red camp started counting both stand-alone players and 360 add-ons as "
dedicated players", we just knew it was only a matter of time before the blu camp figured that "two could play at this game." Now, thanks to the
lower priced PS3 and the Black Friday deals on Blu-ray players, the BDA is claiming to have sold 2.7 million Blu-ray players. While we have no doubt that Sony was able to sell more than 2.3 million PS3 and another
300,000 -- or so -- Blu-ray players, HD DVD fans will be quick to point out that PS3s are game machines and that if everyone thought they were Blu-ray players, than sales would be 3.6:1, instead of the measly
2:1 that Nielsen is reporting. Regardless of who sold the most "players," one thing is for sure, HD DVD needs to find a way to double the sale of movies if they want to win this thing -- assuming it doesn't go on forever.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
shawnmos @ Dec 4th 2007 2:06PM
Dumb. Not everyone uses the PS3 for playing Blu-ray movies. However, everyone who buys the 360 add-on uses it to play HD DVDs. Why else would they buy it, considering that's all it does?
Kevin Murphy @ Dec 4th 2007 10:17PM
Not every PS3 is hooked to an HDTV.
Michael @ Dec 4th 2007 11:10PM
I'm not referring this specifically to you, but so many times on Engadget I hear so many people saying probably PS3 owners do not buy Blu-ray. I realize that I am not everyone, but I am part of everyone so I am sure I am not the only one, and so for me I do have an HDTV, and as of now I have about 18 Blu-ray movies, and with only Talledega Night being free. I love watching movies with my wife with our Samsung 4671 TV and Bose surround sound. So, here is one confirmed instance of a PS3 owner actually enjoying watching/buying Blu-ray movies. By the way, I also have about 8 PS3 disc games as well. I say all of this to say that there are people who enjoy quality, which isn't a diss on HD-DVD or anything like that, I just happen to like Blu-ray and my PS3.
EQC @ Dec 4th 2007 2:06PM
I'm guessing the numbers would be pretty low still...but does either side count desktop/laptop BluRay/HDDVD drives?
Anthony Butler @ Dec 4th 2007 2:08PM
BDA is desperate. the xbox 360 players are dedicated players, how could they not be? explain another reason to buy one other then to watch HD DVDs?
In the end all this talk doesnt matter. BD will continue to win in software sales for a good while longer but as long as HD DVD continues what its doing that margin will begin to lessen. BD has all the hit movies right now so they are outselling but in Q1 when American Gangster, Beowulf, The Kingdom, and other HD DVD exclusives come out the sales will probably shift again.
Anthony Butler @ Dec 4th 2007 2:09PM
xx
ryan @ Dec 4th 2007 2:13PM
When HD releases a title in demand people will buy it. It may be a long time before HD DVD passes blu in sales, if ever but they could catch up with a steady stream of good titles. Chances are high it won't happen in '07.
mlody11 @ Dec 4th 2007 2:17PM
Christ... I wish Toshiba would just create a huge HD Player production to ramp up production and make a $99 - $89 price point permanent and use the commercials they have now as a battering ram to J6P. I doubt they would loose more money than Sony on their PS3s and would end this format war. Similarly, Blu-ray in their infinite triumph could lower the prices of their damn player...
I don't give a shit if I need two players to watch HDM, as long as its AFFORDABLE! Lossless this, interactive that... Give me AFFORDABLE!
And Amazon is doing BOGO on Warner blu-ray... Blu-ray sponsored?
Looks like they want to show their 'superiority' by trying to beat HD DVD over the head with sales numbers, whether or not that proves anything.
Kumar @ Dec 4th 2007 2:30PM
Both sides will be hurting when it comes to media sales, since most of the early adopters are smart enough to go with online rental services like Netflix. Why replace your library, or go out and buy a film that you have the patience to wait for?
I gave up trying to define myself by a collection of dvds setting near my tv collecting dust.
Adam @ Dec 4th 2007 2:39PM
I agree with the first comment, the 360 addon is only purchased to play HD DVD while the PS3 also plays games. It's not like the HD DVD drive is bundled with the 360 . . . yet
800lb Droll @ Dec 4th 2007 2:40PM
*hands out the tissues*
HD? @ Dec 4th 2007 2:42PM
A lot of people bought PS3s primarily for Blu-ray playback. They are dedicated and standalone (unlike the 360 add-on which can not be used by itself).
So why not count them?
Eddie @ Dec 4th 2007 2:55PM
You're a smart kid HD?, don't say dumb things.
Ask everyone who bought an XBOX360 HD DVD Addon why they did, and the answers will be 99.9% "To watch HD-DVDs". The other .01% will be "To watch BluRay" (Because people are that dumb).
Ask everyone who bought a PS3 why, and their answers will be 41% "To watch BluRay and play games" and another 12% "For the games" and 47% "Because I loved my PS2".
[Mustering my best Ron Burgundy impression]
It's science.
Jnas @ Dec 4th 2007 2:49PM
Yeah that is SO stupid. NOBODY who buys a playstation 3 watches Blurays! Thats just soooo stupid! I mean, i watch bluray on my PS3, but thats JUST ME! I'm a special case.
So apart from me, NOBODY plays blurays on their PS3!
Actually, my cousin watches blurays on his PS3....
and a few of my friends do too...
BUT THATS IT! NOONE ELSE!!
LA26 @ Dec 4th 2007 2:56PM
Kinda unfair for Sony not to be able to count them.
I purchased almost 10 Blu-Ray movies so far and what I've noticed is that on some titles theres a packaging sticker that notifies people that a PS3 can play this disk.
ryan @ Dec 4th 2007 3:14PM
Some don't want to spend more for the discs for their player. Some don't have HDTV's. Some don't even know it plays blu-rays.
Everyone who buys the add-on buys it for HD DVD. That's why the numbers are said that way.
Toshiba isn't lying saying that there are more dedicated players and Sony isn't lying when they say there are 2.7 million blu-ray players. Both are entirely accurate.
Leonardo DiCrapio @ Dec 4th 2007 3:28PM
Tom Adams of Adams Media Research has some great moving estimates of the number of stand-alone blu-ray that will be in consumer's hands by the end of the year:
November 23rd, 2007
There will be 400,000 stand-alone Blu-Ray players in households by the end of the year.
November 30th, 2007
There will be 370,000 stand-alone Blu-Ray players in households by the end of the year.
December 7th, 2007?
There will be 350,000 stand-alone Blu-Ray players in households by the end of the year?
Leonardo DiCrapio @ Dec 4th 2007 3:30PM
November 23rd, 2007
"Tom Adams of consultancy Adams Media Research in Carmel, Calif., predicts that by the end of the year, households with stand-alone HD DVD players will total 600,000 and households with stand-alone Blu-ray players will total 400,000."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119577479647501539.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
John @ Dec 4th 2007 3:30PM
"assuming it doesn't go on forever." That's it! If 3 game consoles can survive, why not 2 movie players? Nobody wins, but that's life. By the way, I'm getting a PS3 primarily for movies because I think it will have longer term support than all other available BluRay players. Bottom line, count the disk sales, that's what it's all about anyway.
Pictor @ Dec 4th 2007 3:39PM
Toshiba won't be able to keep up the HD-Players selling them at a loss for much longer. It's a poor business model, so much so that there aren't any other stand alone HD-DVD players out there that aren't just rebadged Toshiba units (dual format players excluded).
Coolone3000 @ Dec 4th 2007 4:12PM
@Pictor
Actually its not a poor business model. Videogame consoles have been successfully doing it for years as well as the cell phone industry, the only reason your saying that is because you heard someone else say it. I'm sure they have a lot of people who are much better educated then you and I working on things like deciding what prices their players are going to be. Really its a pretty simple concept. Sell at a loss, get it into peoples homes, they buy lots of movies. The cheaper it is, the broader your potential audience. Anyways, i'm sure the concept still escapes you, but then again you seem to have some profound inside info on Toshiba since you think they can't sell at a loss for much longer....are they in financial trouble or something? Who's your informant??
hothotdisco @ Dec 4th 2007 7:07PM
Bingo. Its something HD-DUD fanboys often fail to realize. No profits=no future. Its as simple as that boys and girls. And the worst part is; HD-DVD movie sales are weak so Toshiba won't be able to recoup their losses through royalties. Another thing to consider is the other HD-DVD companies. If Toshiba keeps selling these super cheap players, what incentive do the other HD-DVD companies have to stay in the game? None really because Toshiba is taking up most of the market share. Its only a matter of time before other studios and HD-DVD manufacturers jump off the sinking ship.
sn1per420 @ Dec 4th 2007 3:48PM
Look, regardless of how you count (or don't count) the ps3 as a player, the fact is, media sales are 2:1 in favor of blu-ray. And I think everyone knows that media sales is what counts most in a format war.
Chris @ Dec 4th 2007 3:56PM
Why do people say that Toshiba cant afford to sell cheap HD players for much longer? Sony loses a lot of money for each PS3 sold and nobody is saying sony will go out ot business.
Shack @ Dec 4th 2007 4:22PM
@ Chris
That's traditionally how the game console business works. Sell the machine at a loss and make your money back on software. They make their money when the console owners spend $40 to $60 per game. This is true of XBox 360 and PS3. It was true of the last gen consoles as well, but I'm sure the PS2s you can buy now sell at about cost or more.
Selling hardware at a loss like Toshiba has supposedly been doing with some of their previous generation models will take a ton more software sales to cover.
The BOGO free sales that some people complain about are not losses. Sure, the revenue per disc is cut in half, but the sales could triple (or more) on movies that may have nearly run their course in sales anyway. In that case, 3 x .5 = 1.5 times the revenue they might have had on a particular title during a given week.
Ian @ Dec 4th 2007 4:02PM
"one thing is for sure, HD DVD needs to find a way to double the sale of movies if they want to win this thing -- assuming it doesn't go on forever."
Well, they could do what Blu-ray does and just offer a Buy-1-Get-1-Free sale every other week. Seems like a good way to double their "sales". ;)
Mexigun @ Dec 4th 2007 4:05PM
Yay for Blu Ray!
Mexigun
OneAboveAll @ Dec 4th 2007 4:08PM
HD-DVD Movies $20/w BOGO. If the prices on the movies can go down to standard DVD prices we could see a shift in sales. Blu-Ray would still keep their prices at $25-30 as they can't seem to go any lower with their players. I fortunately own both so I'm just all twittered to see who wins...
theefman @ Dec 4th 2007 4:21PM
Pretty poor attach for 2.7 million players.
nihillasohen @ Dec 4th 2007 4:22PM
I will say that the war is far from over, and the numbers are irrelevant to the people that know that numbers can be made to look appealing. On the other hand public perception is a really big factor in this war. Why else would they announce every single attached rate or weekly sales number? As far as everyday consumers are concerned the BDA is winning.
I already know what youre going to say. So dont jump on me just yet. I will refer you back to my first sentence in this post. (Pause) AhemToshiba is winning the race to the sweet spot for consumers. Which is a great strategy if youre trying to sell software only, but where is the profit in selling players below cost when your company doesnt make movies. The goal isnt to bring you the best quality in HD video. The goal is to become a world standard disc. Toshiba wants HD-DVD to be the standard disc when it comes to everything (movies, computers, and software), so they can make money on royalties for every disc sold like it did with DVDs. The flaw would be that HD-DVDs dont currently hold the most data per disc on the market. That would be Blu-ray. I know that there are prototypes that can hold equivalent data, but they are not on the market yet and may not ever get there if something doesnt change soon.
The world is consistently asking for more data space, and HD-DVD doesnt have the legs to handle being a world standard disc. I can honestly say the Blu-ray might not be that either, but with the strategy of putting a Blu-ray player in every single PS3 is undeniably causing the high sales. On the other side of the war (Sony sells computers, video games, and movies). They are well on the way to becoming a world standard. Unless consumers are given some indicator that BDAs wont continue its dominance, its time for Toshiba to throw in the towel.
Mike @ Dec 4th 2007 4:40PM
Sooner or later, HD-DVDs and/or Blu-rays will jump the market to the PC realm, and their use will start to become practical. When that happens, people are going to look at the two formats and decide which of them they're going to use (unless a practical dual-format standard emerges). Since Blu-ray has a much higher disc capacity than HD-DVD, the natural choice will be Blu-ray. I hope that Blu-ray wins because when I buy a Blu-ray burner, I'm going to want to be able to use that technology on my TV, and if Blu-ray wins the movie war, that will become much more likely.
Aside from that, I'm rather indifferent as to who wins the movie war. I've got a PS3; if Blu-ray wins, I'm already set. If HD-DVD wins, well, by the time a clear winner is chosen, HD-DVD will probably have such cheap players that it really won't hurt my wallet too badly.
Smee @ Dec 4th 2007 7:24PM
Everyone is forgetting the Chinese in all of this. While the BDA is saying they have won again, Tosh has licensed it's HD product to the Chinese.
Today,BR is winning, but when the Chinese ramp up production and lower costs does anyone really think Tosh cant win this?
Realistically the world could be swamped with very cheap HD DVD players within 12 months that could potentially see the end of standard DVD players, while BR takes the fight up with a games console?!
There is a much bigger picture and goal for Tosh IMO then just movie sales for a market that currently represents about 1% of DVD sales.
h0mi @ Dec 4th 2007 4:27PM
This is why you have the distinction between a "standalone" player and a ps3. 2.7 million players and how many movies sold? Has it crossed 2 million yet? 3 million?
borland502 @ Dec 4th 2007 4:56PM
4 million in early November for Blu, and I think 2.5 million for HD-DVD in mid November. It's a patch on DVD, but a little bit more than whatever tiny number you were thinking of.
Shack @ Dec 4th 2007 4:32PM
@ Ian
Both sides do the BOGO or even the B3G2 deals. The HD-DVD side sites the BOGO everytime they lose what should be a big week yet these movies in the BOGO offers rarely make the top 10 which is where 75% or more of the weekly sales are...so the BOGO don't give much of an excuse.
lucyfan62 @ Dec 4th 2007 4:48PM
I was going to get a PS3 on Black Friday, but I found a better deal on a Blu-Ray player. I'm not a gamer, so I would have bought the PS3 mainly to watch movies and probably play the occasional game. As it is I went with the stand-alone player. If Toshiba has another $99 fire sale, I'd certainly consider picking up a unit and having both, because I'm not going to buy regular DVDs from Universal, Paramount or Dreamworks if I can eventually get them in HD. There are a lot of new movies from those studios that I would buy, but I'm not going to get double-dipped. I don't understand why the studios don't see how they're only hurting themselves by not offering consumers a choice of formats instead of dividing everyone. It makes sense for Sony to be BD exclusive since they developed the format, but for the rest who have no monetary stake in either format, it seems that they are cutting into their own potential profits by limiting their product to the consumer. Warner is the only major studio with any common sense in this matter. Be format neutral and let the consumers decide. I was around for the VHS vs. Beta war and I remember films being offered in both formats at the local video rental store and the consumers decided what format they wanted. Can't anyone learn from history??
Gabu @ Dec 4th 2007 5:50PM
@lucyfan62
Some studios have a monetary reason to support HD DVD. They paid Paramount and DreamWorks a total of $150 million to go exclusive.
For some odd reason I feel compelled to be a diehard blu-ray fan, but I there is no logical reason why. Maybe it's because blue is my favorite color...
mlody11 @ Dec 4th 2007 6:29PM
"films being offered in both formats at the local video rental store and the consumers decided what format they wanted. Can't anyone learn from history??"
Sony apperently did... otherwise they would have lost already. I doubt there is a single HD DVD supporter that wouldn't like the idea of all HDM to be on all formats, I do not know if I can say the same about blu-ray supporters...
ryan @ Dec 4th 2007 4:55PM
Shack
HD DVD has never done a bogo at brick and mortar stores that I am aware of. Like the Blu-ray fanboys say, amazon sales don't matter. They need the sales in the actual stores where J6P can make a few purchases.
Shack @ Dec 4th 2007 5:34PM
@ ryan
I see what you're saying, but I wasn't aware that BD had had any BOGOs at brick and mortar stores. I do most of my shopping online, but I do occasionally pick up the new release here in town. I can't believe I missed any of the BOGO offers although the ones I've seen online have had a pretty sad selection of movies. With the exception of the time they offered the POTC movies, I haven't even been intrigued by the offers out there.
Thanks for the heads-up, though, and I'll try to do a better job of knowing what I'm talking about in the future!!
DrXym @ Dec 4th 2007 5:22PM
I see no reason that Blu Ray shouldn't count them. The PS3 is one of the best Blu Ray players out there. So what if every single owner doesn't play Blu Rays on them? They're still Blu Ray players and disc sales clearly show many people are using them as such. Even in the US where HD DVD isn't being slaughtered, sales are still 2:1 and rising in Blu's favour. The situation is even grimmer for HD DVD elsewhere in the world. Even the price advantage (through massive subsidization) of HD DVD is disappearing. You can buy a Blu Ray player for $320 this year. Next year with so many new models flooding the market it will be half again.
Sean @ Dec 4th 2007 7:53PM
Yes, they will be cheaper when new models hit the market for one main reason: Profile 1.1 models will take the place of $500 and up players while incompatible models that only play the movie and pop up menus will be around $200 to $300. I have said this many times, that Blu Ray's hardware is scatterbrained. The whole format in my opinion is not organized hence the profile business. I dont know who will win if anyone does, but at the end only a handful of people will be the winner if Blu Ray wins simply because you will be required to purchase a new BD player if you wish to access the advanced content on future discs. Like BD+, everyone will ignore the imminent danger of the multiple profiles coming to market one after another. I support format neutrality but I dont support screwing the consumer.
Truth Teller @ Dec 4th 2007 5:38PM
Blu-ray, the incomplete & over-priced kids game console format.
Who cares how they count this, either way it looks cr@p for Blu-ray.
1) Count PS3s as Blu-ray players & it just shows up the dreadful attachment rate for the pis$-poor performance it is.
2) Don't count PS3s as Blu-ray players & it exposes Blu-ray for the laughably dependent-on-a-kids-game-console format it absolutely is.
lordjedijoe @ Dec 4th 2007 5:56PM
I have owned my PS3 for about 8 months now, and have never played a game on it. I only watch movies. Games are for my Xbox 360 and Wii.
When the new Grand Theft comes out in April, I will purchase my first game for PS3. My brother in Law, and my brother, both own PS3's to primarily play Blu-Ray Movies.
So, I find it funny when people say not to count them.
Devils Advocate @ Dec 4th 2007 6:13PM
Ben,
If you really want to stir the pot, dont forget to post Micheal Bay's newest comment at:
http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5874&postcount=2
EEL @ Dec 4th 2007 7:24PM
@ Devils Advocate
All Red vs Blu trolling aside, that has to be by far the most ignorant, incompetent fake post that I have ever read. Seriously, I think we can all agree that Michael Bay is at the very least educated enough not to type nonsensical B.S. that only "Sybil" would believe.
C'mon, Devils. Blu fanboy or not, you're better than that!
Iridium @ Dec 4th 2007 6:21PM
Why is the PS3 a kids game console? I doubt there are many kids actually playing one. The target demographic for the PS3 is 17-35. The PS3 is actually the best home entertainment package that has come around, maybe ever. You can play great games, store you music collection, rip DVD's using your computer and store them, browse the internet, upscale everything video to 1080p, and you can use a PSP to access all of the content when you are on the road. It costs way less than a HTPC that can do the same. Too bad the USA isn't going to get the IPTV service.
A whole lot of people bought a PS2 rather than a standalone DVD player so it goes to say that a lot of people buy a PS3 instead of a standalone BluRay player. At least until they drop below $100.
The business model Toshiba is using is only sucessful in the vdieo game industry because of license rights. Which is why Toshiba alone can do it. They get license rights from selling HD-DVD discs. That is the reason why the Venturer player is $199. A company will not sell a product if there is no profit unless they can make a profit off of it in some other way. That is why there will be no other standalone HD-DVD players until the component costs can give a $99-200 player a decent profit margin. By that time Blu-Ray will be able to sell a player at that price with good margins as well. What happens when HD-DVD loses its price advantage?
mike @ Dec 4th 2007 6:26PM
man if there was no such thing as the ps3 and to a lesser extent, the xbox 360 add-on. This new format war would be over already, with hd-dvd the clear cut winner. I cant believe video games consoels (or at least just he ps3) is the cause of this silly movie format war.
I dont care if your a blu-ray supporter, theres no way in hell you can think blu-ray would even have a shot if the ps3 did not exsist. This just makes me hate sony even more, for ruiing hd movies for all of us because of them wanting another monopoly. Why couldnt the ps3 just include a damn dvd drive. If it did, and was cheaper, I garuntee it would be in more competition with the 360. But I guess sony knows which industry is a bigger money maker, and they have apparently placed their cards in movies, not games.
Gabu @ Dec 4th 2007 7:03PM
@mlody11
"I doubt there is a single HD DVD supporter that wouldn't like the idea of all HDM to be on all formats"
Of course there are. Look at some of the overzealous supports who post to these threads (from both sides). The fanatics call for a swift and total destruction of the opposition.
"I do not know if I can say the same about blu-ray supporters..."
I'm not surprised since that is one way to win the war and nobody wants to be stuck with a $400 obsolete player.
hothotdisco @ Dec 4th 2007 7:06PM
The PS3 is different from a stand alone HD-DVD player. Sony can recoup their losses through game sales AND blu-ray movies whereas HD-DVD cannot because they continue to get spanked.