DVD Forum approves 51GB triple-layer HD DVD spec
by Nilay Patel 
posted Nov 15th 2007 at 9:11PM
Toshiba's been demoing a triple-layer hybrid HD DVD / DVD system for a couple years now, but it's been all unofficial until today, when the DVD Forum steering committee voted to approve the spec as part of the official HD DVD standard. The third 15GB layer bumps the total capacity of HD DVD up to 51GB, matching Blu-ray's 50GB disks. Of course, we wouldn't expect to see a flood of content on the new disks anytime soon, what with all those shiny new double-layer players getting sold right now, but it's interesting to see HD DVD step up in the one area Blu-ray was clearly superior. The stalemate continues!
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
h4ldol @ Nov 15th 2007 9:16PM
Wow. This prototype triple-layer HD DVD will have the same capacity of the dual-layer blu-ray that has been out for over a year. Of course, it's not likely that this disc will play on any existing players. Will it ever come to fruition? Maybe a year after the 100gb quad-layer blu-ray developed by TDK is in production. Entire LOTR, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc., on a single blu-ray. Life is good for blu-ray owners.
Marshall @ Nov 15th 2007 9:20PM
Did somebody hear something? I could have sworn I heard something.
Nfinity @ Nov 15th 2007 10:07PM
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this means that TL51 is finally A REALITY and that it has been approved as working on all players.
This is official from the 40th DVD Forum Steering Committee.
And another great news for HD DVD is that twin TL disc is also approved. Meaning that from now on we might see full blown HD movies and SD DVD movies on one side. Talk about advanced format.
As for your commenta about the size, a year into format and Blu-Ray still doesn't do all the things that HD DVD has been doing for over a year now. But hey Blu-Ray at least found a suitable purpose for that extra space. To publish MPEG2 movies and uncompressed audio, not to mention 2 same movies in one just to have hacked version of PiP. Talk about ridiculous.
EEL @ Nov 16th 2007 1:07AM
@ h4Idol
LOTR: New Line Cinema, a division of Time Warner, supports both formats but MAY drop Blu Ray.
Star Wars: LucasArts and 20th Century Fox, Blu Ray support...but we are talking George Lucas here so you know you are going to get jacked around with multiple versions before one comes out that meets your preference. Besides, I think we can at least agree that Ep. 1-3 SUCK compared to Ep. 4-6.
And WTF is this talk about a triple layer HD-DVD disc not playing in exsisting players!? You truly believe that or are you being overcome by the fumes of your own sh*t?
Indiana Jones: Paramount, HD-DVD support only.
Marc Federico @ Nov 16th 2007 4:17AM
loser?
good luck actually getting one of these disks, did u know there are only 2 manufacturing plants in the world which can even produce 50gb bluray disks? yea. and theyre owned by sony, who holds royalty fees for anyone who wants them. cant wait till they try triple layer bluray disks
dual layer hd dvds are just as easy and cheap to make as dvds. please stop supporting sony you morons.
TC @ Nov 16th 2007 6:12AM
Yeah good, one scratch and you have ruined an entire library,yay,yet another intelligent reason to NOT go blu ray.
shabbs @ Nov 15th 2007 9:22PM
I heard the sound of a million Blu-ray fanboi's shutting the hell up and sitting down.
Sami @ Nov 16th 2007 8:05AM
I guess it has to be something about a standard that is not even really finished yet, and makes features like PiP to not work on older players, but what do I know? :P Yeah, Sony rocks. They really do. *i*
sn1per420 @ Nov 15th 2007 9:29PM
You know, adding this to the spec doesn't mean that it'll work in current dual-layer drives. The BDA could approve the 100GB quad layer discs that have been demoed too, but it would be the same story. Until triple-layer compatible drives become widely used, the 51GB disc is useless.
Spiza @ Nov 15th 2007 9:30PM
I thought the HD DVD spec was finalized. I thought adding to the spec like Blu-Ray is doing was a bad thing.
This still doesn't address my fav part of Blu-Ray, a mandatory hard coating.
That said, I don't own either and am waiting on a winner.
I'll be waiting for when this eventually drops into customer's hands though.
shabbs @ Nov 15th 2007 9:48PM
The third layer has always been a part of the spec. All machines/firmware were designed with it in mind. No worries.
Nfinity @ Nov 15th 2007 10:27PM
Mandatory coating was not meant as a benefit, it is a NECESSITY in order for disc to work. True it might be a bit more resistant to scratch, but if it ever gets even a ding, you can throw it away. Not to mention the latest cracking problems with the coating and non-unified type of coating meaning everybody uses what's cheaper for them.
HD DVD on the other hand, as already shown with DVDs works just fine, but in addition if your discs get scratched you can resurface them, having again a usable disc.
I'd rather have something I can fix if it ever goes wrong, over something that's ultimately untested, that i have to throw out in case it's even slightly damaged.
MD @ Nov 15th 2007 9:47PM
Yeah, but our $1000 profile 1.0, low specified BR players look better than your HD DVD players!
EEL @ Nov 16th 2007 1:10AM
@ MD
"Yeah, but our $1000 profile 1.0, low specified BR players look better than your HD DVD players!"
It pains you to write that, didn't it?
shabbs @ Nov 15th 2007 9:58PM
Anyone else notice, the linked article is from Sept. 11th, 2007.
Nfinity @ Nov 15th 2007 10:09PM
Here, to put your mind at ease:
http://www.dvdforum.org/40scmtg-resolution.htm
sycks @ Nov 15th 2007 10:12PM
Shabbs I'm with you on that one. You would think they would read it before they went and wrote a summary about it.
EEL @ Nov 16th 2007 1:40AM
@ shabbs
Could be a typo.
Could be engadget slacking off a bit.
JeffDM @ Nov 15th 2007 10:27PM
China is getting its own segmented HD DVD format? I've vaguely heard of it but it doesn't make sense.
EEL @ Nov 16th 2007 1:34AM
@ Nfinity
"Here, to put your mind at ease:"
Hmm, you know what would put my mind at ease? Having the trolling fanboy descendants of "Sybil" all lobotomized! ...h4Idol, HDpurist, and d-bag that wants to pick a fight on an online forum. Outside of getting a cheap thrill by pissing people off, why do they bother? Please, feel free to add to this list. Maybe a state asylum will give us a group discount for the holidays?
Chris Frost @ Nov 16th 2007 1:10AM
Sounds good, curious what the first 51gb movie will be.
Mr_Fizzlepop @ Nov 15th 2007 10:32PM
Uh...15+15+15=51?
Amazing! 1 more gig than the current Blu-ray....
Amazing!
DaveTehWave @ Nov 15th 2007 10:38PM
Fizzle,
FTA:
'Standard single- and dual-layer HD DVDs offer 15GB and 30GB of storage, respectively. Adding a third layer would have taken the overall capacity to 45GB, still less than a 50GB BD, so Toshiba's boffins worked to get an extra 2GB onto each layer of the three-tier HD DVD.'
Dave @ Nov 15th 2007 10:55PM
Yeah. The article is wrong. It's 17GB/layer.
MI @ Nov 15th 2007 10:58PM
So your months they've been saying 'we can make 51 gig' now they got the DVD group to say 'OK you can do that' and now what player supports it? What discs have it? What's the schedule for the implementation?
None?
Then don't talk smack. My old duster had the bolt pattern to install a 440 hemi with dual quads. That fact didn't embolden me to pull up next to a Vette and talk smack. If I did, he'd smoke me.
Same story.
Seth Amott @ Nov 15th 2007 11:03PM
So does this mean that you will now be able to buy a HD-DVD with the Standard Def DVD format, able to be read in a standard DVD Player and the High Def HD-DVD playable on HD-DVD Players all on one side? If that is true, it is a HUGE advantage over Blu-ray. Think about it, Dad has a nice 50 inch plasma with a HD-DVD drive, and daughter has a little Disney TV with DVD player and they want to buy some kids movie on DVD. Buy one DVD that can play on both. For the most part I am staying out until it settles, but I am leaning Red on this one.
JJ @ Nov 15th 2007 11:18PM
Unless i'm reading your comment wrong seth... they've been selling DVD/HDDVD combo discs for a while now, not anything new really. All this news means is that this extra space for the time being will be as useless as the other formats. Until they decide to do something with it...which the studios seem to be dragging their feet on
Xyzzy @ Nov 15th 2007 11:19PM
"The third 15GB layer bumps the total capacity of HD DVD up to 51GB, matching Blu-ray's 50GB disks."
First, layers can be 15GB or 17GB...
Second, I'm pretty sure 51GB doesn't match Blu-Ray's 50GB disks, but rather beats it by 1GB. Yes, it's useless, but it takes away yet another BD talking point.
And the word on the street is that these WILL work in existing players - maybe we'll find out for sure sometime, assuming we ever need that much space for a movie...
Xyzzy @ Nov 15th 2007 11:21PM
"they've been selling DVD/HDDVD combo discs for a while now,"
The current combo disks have HD DVD on one side and DVD on the other. The new spec (which better be compatible) lets them put both HD DVD and DVD on ONE SIDE of the disk, meaning you can put artwork on the top of the disk instead of having to flip the disk depending on what version you want. The best part of that is that it avoids consumers accidentally watching the wrong version.
Emannikcufesin @ Nov 16th 2007 1:10AM
Bandai has already released two twin format discs on HD DVD that work exactly as you describe. The discs are not flippers but hold the HD DVD and DVD versions of the movie on the same side.
JJ @ Nov 15th 2007 11:43PM
Ah then i guess i DID misunderstand his post. Either way doesnt seem that big of a deal to me unless they do something with that extra space... i mean shoot give it a month and blu ray will tout its next step in a 3 layer 75gb disc and we'll be at square one again.
Unless they start putting more content into these discs other than 1 movie and a few worthless bonus features, the space seems relatively meaningless to me.
Seth Amott @ Nov 15th 2007 11:59PM
Yeah, Xyzzy, thats what I meant. I don't know, that is important to ME, maybe its not a huge market. I just know that I have an HD-DVD player, and the rest of the players in the house are DVD, its nice to be able to buy one disk and have it play on our kitchen TV and on the HD TV. But again, maybe the market isn't that big. I also see HD-DVD causing less confusion, its marketable. You have to explain to customers what Blu-Ray is, HD-DVD explains itself. Blu-Ray may be winning with the Pro Audio/Videophiles right now, but the big market is your average Joe, and thats where price and ease come in. Average American who knows nothing decides the future, not the small population of early adopters. Thats just my 2 cents. Don't yell at me, I have both, HD-DVD and Blu-ray (via PS3) unfortunately, the cost of buying those two players I have only been able to test the HD-DVD because I can't afford more disks. So I can only go off what I have tried.
h4ldol @ Nov 16th 2007 12:24AM
HDM is likely to remain a 'niche market' (read that great article on HDD) and as such, will be decided not by Joe 6-pack and the Walmart-shopping hordes, but rather by early adopters and tech/gadget fans. And for that crowd, HD DVD just doesn't hack it, with their inferior technological profile, meaning audio and video, not lame gimmicks like PiP and interactivity (yeah, send me ads of stuff I saw in a movie) that are geared towards Joe 6-pack. Sure blu-ray costs more for the hardware, but we can afford it and will gladly shell out the money for a superior product. I'm dual format, but I will be glad when blu-ray puts HD DVD out of its misery.
DeadPlasmaCell @ Nov 16th 2007 12:48AM
LoL But I though HD-DVD was already dead? Silly lemmings
EEL @ Nov 16th 2007 1:21AM
@ h4Idol
"I'm dual format, but I will be glad when blu-ray puts HD DVD out of its misery."
After all the bias comments you've made here, you now have the nerve to claim that you are "dual format"!?
Just do us all a favor and take a look at the link below. Reason #8 seems to be about some person or people that may or may not be you or them:
http://www.pcworld.ca/Pages/NewsColumn.aspx?id=3502a6180a010408008b33e8c209b786
EddieBrentwood @ Nov 16th 2007 2:25AM
just one thing, Spielbergs films on Paramount are not bounded by that HDDVD exclusive contract. that was the one clause of the deal. So far, the only one HD Disc from Spielberg is on Bluray only.
Alex @ Nov 16th 2007 1:47AM
this worries me; so all the Netflix people that somehow run a sander over the HD side of the disc will now make it so I can't watch either form of the movie on these one-sided discs? As much as it pains me, BluRay does have something with that scratch coating....no, not the disc rot!
Tom @ Nov 16th 2007 10:06AM
You get sanded discs from Netflix too? It is an issue and makes you wonder what people are doing with the discs, and thats not even counting the food particles often on the discs.
That said the Blu-ray discs I get from Netflix are always pristine. When I was getting HD-DVD discs they were regularly scratched and often unplayable.
The hard coating might have been a necessity, but it has also become a great and valued feature.
Fanboys can downplay it all they want, but I'd love to see it standard on HD-DVDs too.
mlody11 @ Nov 16th 2007 1:49AM
Following EEL's link...
going with HD DVD will get rid of
reason 5, 7 with partial wins on 8 and 1... 4 birds with 1 stone. woot!
While going with BD would get rid of partial 7 and partial 8... 2 birds. Bah!
Dave @ Nov 16th 2007 8:06AM
That Spielberg film you're referring to? Paramount didn't own the distribution rights on that one. So, yeah--that's all Blu-Ray gets.
EEL @ Nov 16th 2007 3:55PM
@ EddieBrentwood
Cool. Unfortunately, we will all have to wait for Indiana Jones HD-DVD and/or BluRay release as well.
h0mi @ Nov 16th 2007 3:10AM
From the article:
"What's unclear at this stage is whether today's HD DVD drives and players will be able to read the new disc."
So the article still does not clarify this important bit of news.
"I thought the HD DVD spec was finalized. I thought adding to the spec like Blu-Ray is doing was a bad thing."
Adding to the spec isn't a/the problem. Creating new incompatibilities is. If TL51 is not compatible, its a problem and a bad thing. If it is, then this is great news. Therein lies the big mystery.
Fat Tony @ Nov 16th 2007 4:04AM
There's the BR "more headroom" argument shot to bits, hahahahahaha.
Who cares, neither format needs the extra space anyway, all it's done has help shut sonys big fat mouth!
What advantage does BR have left now, more DRM and spec 1 players at 3-4 times the price.
Perhaps it should be called "Aqua Ray" now, because blu ray is fading fast!
thomas @ Nov 16th 2007 4:27AM
How 3x15 can make 51?
Seriously, if there's a marketing magic trick, i didn't get it yet.
TrentD @ Nov 16th 2007 9:12AM
Engadget got the number wrong - they're pushing each layer to 17 GB, times three, meaning 51 GB.
mntwister @ Nov 16th 2007 4:59AM
This says nothing that hd-dvd 51gb will work on current players. It only means it will be part of the specs and that new players will be able to play it. I love watching the fan boys get so excited about something that was never said. lol.
Nfinity @ Nov 16th 2007 7:01AM
If you knew anything you would understand that this approval actually MEANS that. Along with the compatibility confirmation with existing player, a company DATARIUS (btw a very notable company) has APPROVED the yields and replication as well as TL51 replication tests.
So yeah, you can pretty much say that TL51 is ALIVE and KICKING. It's just a matter of day when Toshiba will come out with Press Release and an announcement for the first title using TL51 shortly after.
mntwister @ Nov 16th 2007 11:58AM
Maybe now hd-dvd can finally fot lossless tracks onto all their discs, just like the blu-exclusives do (every single one guys).
RogueAgent @ Nov 16th 2007 3:21PM
A lot of first gen DVD players 10 yrs ago had serious problems with Dual layer DVD's, simply because noone had produced DVD9 at the time they were launched (anyone remember the DVD10 flippers..?)
Even if it turns out that current players are not compatible with TL51, I do not see this any more of a problem than it was back then - A lot of the people who has jumped on the HD DVD (or BD for that matter) bandwaggon at this time, are people whom I doubt would expect a first (or even second) generation player of a new format to last very long under their TV. Even without TL51, a lot of early adopters would go out and buy the next generation players when they become available.
Poll: How many of the people who purchased a HD-A1 has NOT upgraded it by now..?
Truth Teller @ Nov 16th 2007 6:59AM
Quit lying.
Blu-ray's actual max is 47gb.
If they try and push it higher they get enormously increased failure rates.
The only thing we don't yet know is whether the 1.5x spin speed has carried over from the old 45gb TL HD DVD disc design.
If it has then HD DVD also removes the last boast of the Blu-ray side in the pi*sing contest, HD DVD will have the larger raw bit-rate too.
For those day-dreaming of larger Blu-ray discs there's a couple of things to remember.
Firstly either they won't play on existing hardware or if they might (like the recent Hitachi prototype) they can't be replicated on existing production lines and
secondly there is no indication so far as to whether they are suitable for real time movie playback
thirdly there isn't a chance in hell of a movie studio using them and taking on the additional costs &risking problems and a bad rep with the existing BD user base (they had enough trouble getting the DL BD discs to work and even produced) and
fourthly and lastly the US retailing giants have already called this, the winner will be HD DVD
(which even smurf-in-chief Stringer is now recognising, which is why he admitted recently that cointrary to the lies Blu-ray has actually won nothing).
When Warner dump Blu-ray (just like Paramount did) in Jan 2008 the pieces will have fallen into place.
Blu-ray, to PS3 what UMD is to PSP.