Blu-ray standards: Profile 1.0 vs. 1.1 vs. 2.0
by Richard Lawler 
posted Nov 6th 2007 at 4:03PM
Since we first heard the words "full profile", trying to decipher what Blu-ray players will have which features has been a surprisingly complicated affair. CNet took a minute to break down the differences between Profile 1.0, Profile 1.1 (aka Final Standard Profile or Bonus View) and Profile 2.0 (aka BD-Live). Profile 1.1 players with picture in picture capability (and movies to watch on them) are finally in sight, but we're still waiting to see when internet connectivity is available for the Blu-ray camp.
Filed under: Blu-ray
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
ryan @ Nov 6th 2007 4:10PM
Hopefully for their sakes past players will be upgradeable to 1.1 or even 2.0 so they aren't $500 to $1000 doorstops useless for playing any special features.
JimC @ Nov 6th 2007 4:50PM
As long as I can watch the movie, I could care less about Profile 1.1 or higher. For some strange reason, I buy movies to watch the movie...I know it is radical but I'm a radical kind of guy....
digason @ Nov 6th 2007 4:48PM
Saying the players will be a doorstop is rather harsh. As long as titles that take advantage of 1.1 features are done the way Fox is doing it, 1.1 extras will still be viewable, just not with the full experience. Thus the reason for 1.1 being called bonus view.
Check the text about halfway down this article in parenthesis.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/Fox/Fox_Issues_Final_Specs,_Street_Date_for_Sunshine_Blu-ray/1130
Region Free HD @ Nov 6th 2007 7:47PM
One problem: you can't add hardware that isn't there with a simple firmware update.
Oh well, at least there are fewer hardware profiles for Blu-ray than there are versions of Windows Vista.
LiqwidZero @ Nov 7th 2007 9:07AM
You can't. The only BD player possible to upgrade is the PS3. That's it, at the moment.
Shape @ Nov 6th 2007 4:25PM
The past players definitely will not be upgradable to 1.1 or 2.0 because they lack a second video decoder, which is necessary for PIP.
JeffDM @ Nov 6th 2007 7:03PM
A "second decoder" doesn't have to mean hardware. I doubt the A1 had a specific dedicated video decoder, it probably just used otherwise unused / spare CPU capacity to decode the second AV stream.
This whole business of the BDA not requiring a whole lot is quite bothersome and I just don't see why they needed to require all the hardware up front.
I have to ask though, where the h*ll is managed copy?! Even if it's supposedly there, it doesn't seem to be available for either format, and it seems to be the biggest letdown of the HD formats.
Kiwi616 @ Nov 6th 2007 4:35PM
Which makes it more of a reason to buy a PS3 instead of a stand-alone v1.0 or v1.1 BD-Player. I am happy to have mine for the cost of $0.00 (gift purchase) and a 60GB version :)
Paul @ Nov 6th 2007 4:43PM
Amazing that the Blu-boyz will not admit to this being a handicap? How does Sony&company justify to thier customers who just spent hundreds of $s that thier machines wont be able to play most of the features the box advertises? It amazes me and I have to wonder why so many people back blu instead of red. The only thing I can figure is they purchased on an impulse and now feel they HAVE to back Sony's equipment?
domerdel @ Nov 6th 2007 4:51PM
it's only a handicap if you're primary goal in life is the secondary features.
EddieBrentwood @ Nov 6th 2007 6:58PM
You could say the same about the non full featured HD-DVD players that output 1080i and not 1080p back when they were no where near $100.
having said that, yeah, it would be really lame to pay $1000 for a bluray player that is not full featured. Unless it was a cheap 200 or 100 dollar thing its not cool that it isnt full featured.
Scott @ Nov 6th 2007 4:42PM
Way to release non-upgradeable incomplete hardware Blu-Ray! Wooooo!
andyg8180 @ Nov 6th 2007 4:47PM
Wait, they wont be able to just burn a disc to upgrade the firmware?? Thats bogus... Current HD-DVD players connect to the internet or you can burn a firmware disc to do upgrades... C'mon people, doesnt anyone believe in scalability anymore?
ryan @ Nov 7th 2007 7:27AM
That's why I said useless for playing special features. Obviously movie playback will be unaffected. It would be a doorstop for those that really want special features.
Segarsj @ Nov 6th 2007 5:34PM
@Domerdel
Obviously, not. If you already have a Blu-ray standalone player that's not 1.1, 2.0 compatible, there is little reason to shell out another $400 (or more) for the PiP, or to wait for the web connectivity.
However, if there exists a player, which is fully featured, beyond anything on the horizon offered by the competition, AND it's cheaper, why not recommend that to new customers?
I just don't see the logic here? Would you seriously recommend to a random consumer, that they not only wait and spend MORE money on a semi-comparable piece of hardware instead of taking advantage of the advanced interactive features right now, for less money?!
How, in good conscience could anyone recommend a more expensive fully featured player that hasn't come out yet, when HD DVD has been offering all of this since day one? Sure, there is a 1.1 player on the way, but what web connectivity, or 2.0?
I realize that you weren't claiming this but your comment only applies to people that have already invested in a Blu-ray player. They aren't "handicapped" necessarily, but of course it all depends on whether or not they are aware of their players inability to utilize these features, along with their relative desire to use/view the features in the first place.
If you don't like the advanced features, that's perfectly fine, but a lot of people out there do, myself included. You might counter, saying that the features are somewhat trivial, and you would be partially right, some are, but surely not everything. It's important to remember that we are only in the infancy of HDM, and with the creation of the Advanced Interactivity Consortium you can bet that we've only seen the tip of the iceberg as far as advanced interactivity is concerned.
All I'm saying is this... why wait? Why wait on Blu-ray when HD DVD is here and now, cheaper, and offers the consumer a better overall user experience through all of the advanced interactivity/web content?
JimC @ Nov 6th 2007 5:16PM
Paul said:
"Amazing that the Blu-boyz will not admit to this being a handicap?"
How is it a handicap? I don't want PiP so to me, adding it is just fluff that I don't want. Like I said earlier, I buy movies to watch the movie not someone talking about the movie or some other unnecessary "feature"...
Scott @ Nov 6th 2007 5:40PM
@JimC
Yeah, you buy movies to watch movies. That's you. Believe it or not, there are people out there that enjoy extra features. They like seeing what went into making the movie or hearing the director's thoughts on certain scenes. Those features are not unnecessary just because you don't watch them. You are not the majority of people.
Disc players that are meant to play one format but don't support all the features of that format are absolutely handicapped (or whatever term you prefer)..especially when there's no way of upgrading them. That's like buying an XBox 360 that'll play Halo 3, but doesn't support any kind of online multiplayer. (ok..it's not exactly like that, but you know what i mean)
HD4ME @ Nov 6th 2007 7:26PM
@JimC
How do you know that you don't want the extras if you have never tried them?
I think they add so much, especially if it is a great movie, you want to make the experience last as long as it can.
You sound like my father who used to say, power steering, air conditioning, who needs it.
How can we live without them today, there not extras, there standard features.
He used to say it though because it makes the car to expensive.
Reverse scenario here, the product with more features, HD DVD is much cheaper.
HD DVD4Me @ Nov 6th 2007 5:06PM
@ domerdel
They're called "Next Generation Optical Drives/Players" for a reason and I would consider the PiP, alternative camera angles and downloadable extras as part of that. No, they're not my "primary goal in life", but it's part of what I paid for...had I purchased a blu ray player, that is.
domerdel @ Nov 6th 2007 5:34PM
your point is valid, but i'm referring to the term "handicap" someone used. I love movies in hi-def, and that's it.
Scott @ Nov 6th 2007 5:12PM
even the most stubborn of fanboys has to admit that this kind of sucks. confusion in the marketplace only leads to consumers either waiting or going with the competition...neither of which leads to a successful product.
not to mention the people who get pissed because they were early adopters and now they can't take advantage of some features...and yes, those people do exist, even if they don't frequent the Engadget HD boards.
TeddyN @ Nov 6th 2007 5:14PM
I have a laptop with a bluray drive in it...
Does anyone know whether I'll be able to upgrade to 1.1 / 2.0?
Will Merydith @ Nov 6th 2007 5:14PM
Hey did you guys hear about this thing called an HD-DVD player. It has an Internet connection and titles that use it. FYI.
Alex @ Nov 6th 2007 5:22PM
BluRay players released that are unable to play features on discs released now or in the near future sure sounds like a handicap to me, regardless of my desire to watch it.
h4idol should have some insight for us, shouldn't he??? ummm where is he now???
domerdel @ Nov 6th 2007 5:47PM
Segarsj:
First off, I wouldn't recommend any format to the "random" consumer, because the prices aren't ready. I understand that the prices for stand-alone are asking a lot, for the given features, but it's for an early adopter market.
When I recommend either format, to someone who is questioning a path, I have them dig into their own library list of movies, and see which ones come up exclusive, and also inform them of extra interactive features. If the shoe fits, they go to HD-DVD, otherwise I have my own personal choice for blu-ray.
Don't get me wrong, the interactive features are a key bonus for extended movie replay value. I just don't think it should be the main focal point in the sales tactic. Blu-ray went the higher storage higher bitrate rather than the "ah, just good enough" attitude. PQ remains very close, but as far as the future holds when bitrates increase and file sizes increase, there's a better road-map for blu-ray IMO. HD-DVD has become the lowest common denominator when authoring movies, they're winning in that dept., and 90% of the time they are just being ported to blu and there's this gripe of not having space, only exclusive BD titles are seeing justice. My arguement doesn't validate the fact that comparing profile 1.0 to 1.1 is going to meet that roadmap of the future (i went off on a tangent).
The pricetag is for the guy with the ego, the only handicap they face is paying the price for bragging rights to say "i have HD content and you don't". I bought a PS3 because I wanted to get back into gaming, and watch awesome Hi-Def content.
Paul @ Nov 6th 2007 6:45PM
@JimC
ok, so you are one who would never use any of the extra features of the player, that's fine....Why then wouldn't a person purchase the player that costs the least amount of money to get the feature( playing movies) they want? Unless it was because of an impulse purchase and they feel the need to justify that purchase? and don't say it's because of the technical superiority of the player because HD DVD would be the one with that edge too.
Cam @ Nov 6th 2007 6:38PM
Paul:
Well said...if both formats are capable of 5 star ratings for video and audio on hidefdigest, then just go for the cheaper one!
Unless he wants to watch Disney movies :P
Gil @ Nov 6th 2007 5:56PM
"I bought a PS3 because I wanted to get back into gaming, and watch awesome Hi-Def content."
Well.. 1 out of 2 ain't bad.
Segarsj @ Nov 6th 2007 6:12PM
@domerdel
"First off, I wouldn't recommend any format to the "random" consumer, because the prices aren't ready."
I'm not so sure about that. $199 for an HD-A3 (third gen Toshiba) sounds just right to me. I don't think that Blu-ray prices are low enough yet, but this again brings us to the issue of them lacking features that are present even on the cheapest HD DVD player. When a Blu-ray standalone drops below $200, will it be a 1.1/2.0 compliant piece of hardware, or will it simply be a 1.0 player? At that point it is up to the consumer to weigh their options, as it should be. The debate would be in that particular instance: Do I value 1080p more than I do advanced interactivity/web enabled features and downloads?
Surely the market will be split on those two things, but just how much remains to be seen. For the majority of people that don't have 1080p sets, the decision will be a clear one, at least in my opinion.
Dave @ Nov 6th 2007 7:18PM
@domerdel
With regard to the "lowest common denominator" in the authoring department, that isn't clear. Although HD-30 is certainly less storage space than BD-50, most Blu-Ray discs are BD-25. Also, due to pooling the total usually ends up being closer to 22GB to keep yields at acceptable levels. So when a movie is authored for both formats, the lowest common denominator is often Blu-Ray.
elvisizer @ Nov 6th 2007 9:01PM
yeah, the ps3 library currently IS weak, but there's a lot of good stuff arriving now, and coming up- Ratchet and Clank is amazing, Uncharted is awesome, GT5 prologue is unbelievable (way better than forza2's graphics, and equivalent physics+AI. and it's only a demo!), etc.
Still, for pure gaming, I recommend the 360 to friends right now. it's got a great library, and the multiplayer support through live is unmatched on any other platform. But don't count the ps3 out just yet- it's still fighting, and if developers can figure out how to really exploit the cell/rsx combo, it could have some games that you won't see easily replicated on the 360.
Ed @ Nov 6th 2007 6:08PM
@ h4Idol, HDpurist, and the rest of the BD trolls & fanboys who can't offer valid arguments for BD on these post (BD supporters who partake in constructive debates here are obviously excluded):
If you didn't hit the link to read the CNET article, here it is:
http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/home_av/others/0,39037627,62034159,00.htm
Here's another:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/sony-blu-ray-specification-deadline
Outside of having money thrown at you, I just can't understand why in the world anyone would support BD from the start when you knew they weren't able to support firmware updates on profile 1.0, and hoping to get that a proper firmware patch updates a PS3 to profile 1.1 or possible profile 2.0? On top of that, people who want BD still have to shell out $400 - $500 just to get a "low-end" BD player that probably still will be only profile 1.0. All of us here are fairly well informed, so if one of us went out to buy a BD player, we would know to ask for a profile 1.1 unit. If you want BD to succeed, is it right to let the uninformed be your lambs and let them get slaughtered by getting burned like this? You might answer "so what? F*** them!" But will that lead to longevity of the platform?
And don't try to throw BD so called "superior" specs around. Many of us have already exposed it as being nothing more than window dressing:
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/
Cam @ Nov 6th 2007 6:34PM
Why didn't they just call them "Service Pack 1", "Service Pack 2", etc...?
Wow @ Nov 6th 2007 6:51PM
All of this back and forth is ridiculous.
A 1080p Blu-Ray and a 1080p HD DVD are basically identical, anyone saying they can tell the difference is lying.
The only arguement should be which one has better movies, and that's a matter of personal opinion.
Great movies are available on both formats, it's a shame that Sony and Toshiba couldn't have worked this out before it got to this point.
JeffDM @ Nov 6th 2007 7:19PM
"A 1080p Blu-Ray and a 1080p HD DVD are basically identical, anyone saying they can tell the difference is lying. "
It's a little more complicated than that. I think most dual-format HD releases do use the same video stream, so they should have identical output unless the players are doing something stupid.
There are some movies released on both formats that don't get the same encoding and there is some difference, but usually it's pretty subtle.
One site I like to look through is this one:
http://hd-discs.mbmg.de/
Even the much maligned MPEG-2 seems to hold up pretty well.
Alex @ Nov 6th 2007 6:55PM
basically BluRay was just plain released too soon. They have had a year to get this stuff figured out and still are behind. If they would have waited, got the specs finalized, and then released players, everyone would be a lot better off. HD DVD wouldn't have dropped in price so fast, and they still don't have near the studio support. At this point is probably in Everyone's best interest that both formats hang on until dual format players are standard. Neither format in theory is superior to the other, it is a shame they couldn't have combined the best of both to begin with.
sprint_tech @ Nov 6th 2007 7:14PM
This is what is written in the NEW Sony BDP-S500 and the BDP-S2000ES, $699 and $1,299 respectively, manuals.
"This player supports BD-ROM Profile 1 only. Playback of later versions of BDs other than BD-ROM is not guaranteed. Since the Blu-ray Disc specifications are new and evolving, some discs may not play depending on the disc type and the version..."
You have to be a complete moron to support Blu-Ray. Why on Gods earth would you want to spend all that money on a player when you know it is not going to conform to future Blu-Ray standards? How can people support that standard? It might be the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Especially when there is a completed format that has all of the features in place that Blu-Ray is 'hoping' to bring in the future and is only $200.
At least Sony warns people though right?
James @ Nov 6th 2007 7:27PM
Because Fox, Disney, and Sony movies are more important to me than having a 480p box play something while I watch old Universal movies.
Studio support IS a feature, and a far more important one than PIP.
Ed @ Nov 6th 2007 7:33PM
@ sprint_tech
Only if you read the fine print.
Ed @ Nov 6th 2007 10:01PM
@ elvisizer
That maybe true, but we are talking HD players here and not gaming consoles
Sean @ Nov 6th 2007 9:43PM
I called this argument as well. Its funny how "Blu Ray fanboys" sit and poke and say how HD-DVD entry level players are not true HD because it doesn't do 1080p and only does 1080i. But when people attack there format for its TRUE inconveniances, we get excuses like "Well I just want to the movie". Bottom line is, the fact that HD-DVD is finished and is keeping its prices down is getting more and more actual set top boxes into homes. I mean, I couldnt find one HDA2 model this past weekend and even A3s were sold out. Blu Ray players were fully stocked. People do care about those little things that HD-DVD can do and BD cannot and is slowly building up to. 40GB PS3 will become the cheapest BD player on the market for $399.99 at the sacrafice of not being able to play PS2 games. This upsets me :( Back on point. People care about the advanced features and life of the machine and at rock bottom prices near DVD player prices this holiday season, HD-DVD is going to get the momentum it said it would. I know BD is releasing tons of big hit movies, but at the end of the day, a studio is going to look and say, wow, we are loosing alot of money by not releasing on both formats. (like warner is doing)
HD4ME @ Nov 6th 2007 9:57PM
Toshiba HD-A2 model sells 90,000 over weekend
By Susanne Ault -- Video Business, 11/6/2007
NOV. 6 | The HD DVD format significantly pumped its installed base over the weekend, as dueling store clearances sold an estimated 90,000 Toshiba players, according to sources close to retailers.
That tally covers Friday to Sunday sales of Toshibas second-generation HD-A2 model, which Wal-Mart and Best Buy sold for about $99 on Nov. 2. Thats $200 less than Toshibas $299 list price and $100 off widespread retail pricing of $199.
The $99 players made up most of the 90,000 units sold, a source said.
Within three days, Toshiba corralled nearly as many sales as the best-selling stand-alone Blu-ray Disc player has sold since its launch. Sonys dominant Blu-ray set-top, the $499 BDP-S300, has shipped about 100,000 since it bowed this summer.
However, the Blu-ray format still retains the largest overall installation base, due largely to the millions of PlayStation 3 hardware sold.
In fact, the 90,000 figure for HD-A2 sales could be even higher, as it doesnt appear to include all retailer information. The figure does span consumer activity on HD-A2s at Wal-Mart, Best Buy and Circuit City, among others.
Best Buy also shaved $100 off Toshibas $299 third-generation player, the HD-A3, Friday through Sunday. At deadline, a Best Buy spokesman did not provide updated sales on the HD-A3.
Toshiba and the HD DVD Promotional Group also declined comment.
HDpurist @ Nov 7th 2007 12:15AM
General masses couldn't give a crap about BDJ 1, 1.1, 2.0 or even "complete spec from the beginning of time" HD-DVD. The general masses buys a hi def player based on what movies they like - and people buy movies because they like the film, not for the extras. Similarly, people buy into Blu-ray because it offers the best and most interesting movies. Just like any gaming console, the games/software is what makes the console's success, not the hardware or the price of the hardware (as in the case for cheap low quality Toshiba A2/A3).
BD is blowing HD-DVD out of the water, regardless of BDJ spec. BDJ 1.0 is complete. 1.1 and 2.0 add unimportant features which most people don't care about. If it was so important, why isn't HD-DVD
doing any better in the war? Only thing keeping HD-DVD alive is Transformers - otherwise, without this "hit", the war would have been over long ago. Michael Bay is working on Transformers 2 and since he favors BD over HD-DVD, there's no doubt that he'd let Transformers 2 slip by and downgrade to an HD-DVD release like the first one did.
Jeff Regan @ Nov 7th 2007 1:43AM
Yeah, I watched that "downgraded HD DVD release" of
Transformers last night on my 100" wide 2:35:1 screen with anamorphic lens and 1080p DLP front projector, 7 channel B&W speakers, dual Velodyne sub, dual Buttkickers in the sofa Home Theater. It looked and sounded better than my local theater thanks to that lousy HD DVD format.
Yes, Profile 1.0 is complete, just like a Ford Model T. I would love to know that I spent $800
or more on a stand alone Blu Ray player that has no internet connectivity, no dual video image capability, no internal decoding or bitstream output of some of the advanced audio codecs, no persistent memory and no way of upgrading.
Blu Ray has a 9:1 advantage in number of players due to the PS3, but only a 2:1 advantage in disc
sales. Not sure if that's a big win.
The fact is, HD DVD has great titles, great features, great video and sound quality and is by far the best value proposition. HD DVD is on the
third generation of hardware while Blu Ray is still
delivering Profile 1.0.
Sony, the author of the Blu Ray Profiles, rushed the BDP-S500 out to market right before the October 31 deadline to avoid compliance with Profile 1.1.
I agree that the available movie titles should be the most important feature(along with hardware cost), and I like the HD DVD exclusives better,
plus it's region free, so I can buy European imports of many titles only available on Blu Ray
in the U.S. Blu Ray is not region free and its
DRM promises to be even more restrictive in the future.
Cam @ Nov 7th 2007 1:51AM
Hey Moron:
"Only thing keeping HD-DVD alive is Transformers"
The only thing keeping BD alive is the PS3. So what? HD has Transformers, BD has the PS3 on their respective sides.
"without this "hit", the war would have been over long ago"
Uh...you mean 3 weeks ago when Transformers came out? You must be like 12 years old or something for 3 weeks to be a long time.
"without this "hit" ... Michael Bay is working on Transformers 2 and since he favors BD over HD-DVD, there's no doubt that he'd let Transformers 2 slip by and downgrade to an HD-DVD release like the first one did."
Why you diss his movie and then use his support for BD as support for your argument? Do you care what Michael Bay thinks or don't you? Because the "General masses" don't give a f*** what Michael Bay thinks
Ed @ Nov 7th 2007 2:44AM
@ HDpurist
BD blowing away HD-DVD? Ok then, show us the proof. Give us one or more websites that supports the sh*t that you are shoveling out.
Honestly if you just gotta circle jerk someone, do h4Idol. And do it in private, please.
Anthony K @ Nov 7th 2007 11:27AM
Hey HD-DUD grow up, just read any website and you will see the truth IF you are willing to accept it. Regardless if HD gains anything there will always be Blu-RAY no matter what since the PS3 uses it; so Blu-Ray will be around for years and years and years - long after HD-DUD has died!
HD4ME @ Nov 7th 2007 6:00AM
http://www.betanews.com/article/How_HD_DVD_Got_its_Groove_Back/1194405684
I love it how the blu boyz say BR is blowing HD DVD away.
Were they asleep last weekend when the nation went mad and bought 100,000+ HD DVD players?
My tip is , Walmart will do this another 2 times at least between now and Christmas, so we should be able to add another couple of hundred thousnad players to the install base.
Blow as hard as you like about profile 1 meaning nothing and you are happy to pay 4 times the price for the cheapest player, because come Christmas 2007 the HD war will have permanently changed direction and blu ray will become yet another sony niche market product.
Oh, and do you really think Warner will let their future be guided by a failing gaming console?
Not a chance, by the time PS3 is a major player, this war is over.BR's software sales lead is temporary, the only people who don't know that are the BR fanboys :)
fsuifl @ Nov 7th 2007 10:06AM
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Blu-ray pop? 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 2.0, 3.0?!
RS @ Nov 7th 2007 10:11AM
Still waiting for offical word from Sony on updating the PS3. Here's the current profile situation.
http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iij