http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/ Engadget HD Comments for What's the deal with 24p? http://www.engadgethd.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadgethd.com en-us Copyright 2008 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/
-dad]]>Oct 1st 2007 2:55PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/
Maybe I'm a purist, but I'd think most people seeing one way versus the other would deifintely prefer to choose the 24p when projected right.

I won't even get into the "artistic" aspects that some will discuss, because those are less pronounced to me and a high-speed scene on film can suffer from "motion-blur" so to speak, which is annoying and I'd prefer everything shot on digital and post-processed to use 48p, if you want a film like transfer, but with more frames for those fast scenes...

/rant]]>Oct 1st 2007 3:18PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/movie-projector3.htm) and to try emulating the effects of a shutter opening and closing between every frame...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_vision]]>Oct 1st 2007 3:20PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/
-dad]]>Oct 1st 2007 4:36PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/SD DVDs with no pulldown, paired with a 42HL167, which accepts 24, 30, and 60 Hz signals. The difference between 24 Hz and your standard 2:3/60 Hz processing is subtle, but I definitely notice more clarity and sharpness than before. Someone on an AVS forum likened it to peeling back a layer from the display to reveal a better picture underneath.

At present, the two problems people are howling about to Toshiba are that 1) there needs to be a "forced 24 Hz" mode for sources filmed this way, and that 2) the XA2 needs to be updated to run at 23.98 Hz (like the A20 does) and not exactly at 24 Hz, which causes frame/lip sync problems.

And Eric is right; more TVs have been including this feature, seemingly ever since the PS3 was updated to run at 24 Hz, with Toshiba announcing they would follow suit soon after. I can only dream of what this would look like on a Pioneer Kuro or those fabled SED sets from Canon.]]>Oct 1st 2007 5:35PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/Why bother with 1080p when you can have 720p?

Okay okay it's more like saying why bother having a LCD tv with a fast response time.

Movies are shot on film cameras at 24 frames per second. IF you play those frames back at 24 or multiples of 24, 48,72,120 the frames can be displayed without any cadence effects.

Cadence is pretty simply like the difference between interlaced and progressive for frame rate. When a tv that only supports 60hz shows a 24hz frame it must show 60 frames a second. If you leave a blank for the this mean you can display each 24 hz frame 2x but you still have need to fill 12/60 hz.

To fill the space right now tv sets interpolate the missing temporal data from future frames to create the transition frames. Most of the time this is seamless. however it depends on the content and how much you care about seeing it. Less processing is good.

120hz tvs are the future. They can display native 24hz and 60hz making them perfect for movies and tv based media.

]]>Oct 1st 2007 7:36PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/
Film is shot in 24p for a very good reason, it is a frame rate which allows you to enjoy the film (enough refresh) without asking you to believe completely in the production (it isn't TOO real). Because of the low refresh rate you are know (your brain knows) it is film and you automatically drop into a more relaxed state (you have been programmed to do so). Just as blair witch used its video recording at higher frame rates to add more realism, 24 frame film allows you to intrinsically understand that what you are watching is entertainment, not reality so movie productions can get away with murder, fantasy, and push the limits of believability without asking you to fully commit yourself. The film studios have done many studies at 48hz, 60hz, and 72hz and what happened is people enjoyed the film LESS. Most people felt that the film took on a documentary feel, that what they were watching was closer to reality.. horror scenes took on a new level of believability causing the audience to become very engaged, the extra reality scared the crap out of people.

The argument for 24P in HDTV is simple, it allows you to recover the raw frame rate and then using integer multiples, create higher refresh rates without adding a significant amount of frame judder or field artifacts. You can easily go from 24P to 72P for instance by simply repeating every frame this allows you to display at 72Hz on a monitor with few artifacts. Every other cadence requires pull up or down or field repeats which creates visible artifacts. This BTW is exactly how a film projector works, the shutter on a film projector opens and closes 2 or more popularly 3 times for every frame creating a 72hz persistance on the film screen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_projector
]]>Oct 1st 2007 8:59PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/
While I don't entirely disagree with you, I'm guessing that terms like "24p" and "60p" are just interchangeable shorthand for "1080p/24" amd "1080p/60," as I've never seen the "p" applied to both numbers when written like this. Also, "Resolution setting is 1080p/24 Hz" is what pops up on my A20 right after the HD DVD logo appears. Toshiba themselves use "Hz" when writing about the different speeds of their LCDs, as seen in the paragraph below:

"A standard LCD TV typically has a frame rate of 60 frames per second, or 60Hz. To avoid possible motion blur with fast motion video, ClearFrame doubles that frame rate to 120 frames per second, or 120 Hz. While there are many possible methods for creating the additional 60 frames, ClearFrame utilizes superior Motion Vector Frame Interpolation (MVFI) technology. MVFI analyzes Frame A and Frame B and creates a new Frame A+B. By evaluating the speed and direction of multiple picture elements within the frames, this advanced system virtually eliminates motion blur without decreasing image brightness or adding flicker."

And, in their FAQ section:

"Q1. What does this update do?

A1. This firmware update adds support for 1080p/24Hz output to the HD-A20 and HD-XA2 players."

I'm sure any videophiles or engineering/AV experts reading this post will have something to add, but I'm only repeating what I've seen on Toshiba's site as well as countless others.


]]>Oct 2nd 2007 8:08AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/
Film is shot in 24 frames per second for a variety of reasons. The main one is that it is the slowest frame rate that produced acceptable results. Film costs money, lots of money there are 5400 seconds in a 90 minute film. That can mean 129600 frames or 162000. Film costs about $1-3 a frame. You also shoot around a 2-10:1 ratio of raw footage. You are talking about hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars.

As time went on people got used to this film look. This is a cultural issue. Americans expect this "film look" cinematographers also do. This is not the norm in Asia as they prefer higher frame rates. They run the American ones because we tend to produce the equipment and film standards. All of the European standards for framing and aspect ratio were replaced with the American ones. There is pretty much one standard globally right now.

It's part cost saving, part history and part art direction.
Even though blair witch was captured on video it had to be converted on a telecine into 24 frames per second because it had a theatrical release. Video like Blair Witch look hyper real due to the use of video as a source. Video is extremely sharp and has high contrast with a low dynamic range compared to acquisition film stock. Intermediate and print stocks have very tight grain structures (ASA 1 ) and thus are sharp enough to reproduce the sharpness of video.



]]>Oct 2nd 2007 12:22AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/Oct 2nd 2007 9:57AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/Don't get me wrong. Watching 1080P24 video on a 1650x1080 lcd panel scaled to 1080i/60 is wrong. It is never better. It's just that most people will not care.]]>Oct 2nd 2007 12:48PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/
"14 pages, FRONT AND BACK"

oh wait

"Y O U APOSTROPHE R E means "YOU ARE", Y O U R means YOUR"

Must be really hard to proofread...

Anyway, it's totally idiotic to say that there's "stuff going on" and then throw "60Hz" at the reader and not tell them that that that means US-TVs display images at 60 frames per second. Or even better: you could say that movies are shot at 24Hz, couldn't you?

Either keep it simple or don't.]]>Oct 2nd 2007 7:34PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/01/whats-the-deal-with-24p/
Bash, for film, frames per second makes sense, though it doesn't tell everything. To call it Hz when it's an electronic signal isn't too far off the mark. Anyway, film is usually captured at 24 frames per second, though for projection, it's often doubled up and the projection is going through 48 frames per second, even if half of them are duplicates, what it does is help stabilize the picture and make it look less flickery. I'm not even sure how to note that, because half of the frames are duplicates.]]>Oct 7th 2007 3:03AM