Target to only sell Blu-ray players in stores
Everyone's favorite wasteful format war took another strange twist today, with the AP reporting that Target will only stock Blu-ray players in its retail stores -- specifically, Sony's $499 BDP-S300. The decision, which Target and Sony are due to announce tomorrow, doesn't include Target's website, Xbox 360 HD DVD drive, or HD DVD movies, so it's not a particularly huge win for Blu-ray, with even Target saying things like "We are not proclaiming one format vs. the other as the preferred consumer technology." Still, coupled with Blockbuster's decision to only stock Blu-ray discs, it looks like the format war might be fought and won at the retailer level, not by consumers.[Thanks, Keith]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Beta-ray @ Jul 26th 2007 1:57AM
They sell HD DVD + Beta-ray films...on line the HD DVD A2 4 299$, in stores the 360 + HD DVD addon + PS3...yeah major blow.
Nice BDA FUD...Q4 is going to be really interesting ;-)
Dave @ Jul 26th 2007 2:04AM
HD DUD fails...
Shelly @ Jul 26th 2007 4:57PM
not sure it fails. I look forward to seeing Blu-rays go lower than the $300 mark. Not too far away if you look at the last few weeks - link: http://www.pricefad.com/chart.php?range=3m&type=a&smooth=w&n=Blu-ray Player&u=priceguru
Roy Warner @ Jul 26th 2007 2:21AM
Um, HD-DUD doesn't exist. tsk tsk tsk. learn to spell :P
DeadPlasmaCell @ Jul 26th 2007 2:26AM
I don't think the Blockbuster thing is a big deal either, seeing as BB Online still carries HD-DVD.
Sean @ Jul 26th 2007 3:39AM
What a dumb article! Target and other retailers have no weight in the format war. Consumers do. If Blockbuster and Target are going Blu, it's because that's the way software sales are going. Retailers are really spineless; they only take in stock they *think* they're sure to move. You know, just like those thieves in Seattle...
Sean @ Jul 26th 2007 3:42AM
What a dumb article! Target and other retailers have no weight in the
format war. Consumers do. If Blockbuster and Target are going Blu,
it's because that's the way software sales are going. Retailers are
really spineless; they only take in stock they *think* they're sure
to move. You know, just like those thieves in Seattle...
SimbaDogg @ Jul 26th 2007 5:39PM
i didn't know which post to reply to, your first or your 2nd...but i picked this one cuz it looked a little odd.
But anyways, yeah, you're 100% correct that consumers decide who wins. But uhh...last time that you wanted to buy some gasoline, did you brew it up in your sink? Your last show purchase, did you make them in your garage w/ supplies you had on hand?
OF COURSE CONSUMERS WILL DECIDE. But where the hell are consumers supposed to get their goods at? Think about it, if some of the other top 5 electronics retailers in the US did the same thing as target, it'd make it pretty tough to get an hd-dvd player for some people (not everyone shops for goods and services on line contrary to what people may think).
Nfinity @ Jul 26th 2007 4:03AM
Well I think that this news is worded as Target EXCLUSIVELY supporting Blu-Ray which is false. Again, very dissapointing news reporting. It's really disgusting.
Now back to topic, if they stock Blu-Ray ONLY it's their loss, whoever chooses to offer sub $200 HD DVD players this holiday season will make a huge profit. I don't think this will happen with Target. Unless they are stupid, or again Sony made some financial compensation promises and deals with Target(which is really not far fetched), this is a very poor management decision to come out public with this announcement. There's absolutely NO valid statistic that they are going by. They didn't have hi-def players Blu-ray or HD DVD before on sale, they only had movies and even with that I've seen in many Target stores HD DVD sections almost always empty and Blu-Ray stacked. So wording their Blu-Ray support like this makes me think that Sony paid them good chunk of money.
I mean just think about it, what's easier to sell and I mean it's TARGET not JCPenny or Dillards, a $150-$200 player or $400-$500 player? I would agree that they might $20-$50 per HD DVD player against possibly $100 profit on Blu-Ray players, but still, cheaper is EASIER to sell. I would've picked up another HD DVD player for my bedroom at my local Target to be honest, but now I'll be buying it online probably from another store.
Vedder @ Jul 26th 2007 5:35AM
I agree with your saying...pretty hefty price for a budget store. Can't see many people walking into Target dropping five big ones.
I suspect Sony must be offering incentives to Target.
Nfinity @ Jul 26th 2007 5:49AM
Since Engadget is funny enough very slow to put up HD DVD positive news, I'll pitch in:
MICROSOFT LOWERS XBOX360 ADD-ON PRICE TO $179 and GIVE 5 FREE HD DVDs
===
Thursday July 26, 3:01 am ET
SAN DIEGO, July 26 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Today at Comic-Con International 2007, Microsoft Corp. announced it will lower the price of the popular Xbox 360 HD DVD Player from $199 to $179 ERP (United States only) starting Aug. 1, 2007, and will add five free HD DVD movies for anyone purchasing an Xbox 360 HD DVD Player between Aug. 1 and Sept. 30. In addition, Microsoft further solidified the Xbox 360 as the ultimate high-definition (HD) entertainment platform, with key announcements around the HD DVD launches of "300" from Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group and "Heroes: Season 1" from Universal Studios.
To promote the HD DVD versions of "300" and "Heroes: Season 1," Microsoft unveiled exclusive content for Xbox LIVE Marketplace. Xbox LIVE will offer "300" on demand in HD starting Aug. 14, and is working with Warner Bros. at Comic-Con on a Bringing It Home campaign featuring "300" and other Warner Bros. properties. In advance of the street date for the "Heroes: Season 1" HD DVD boxed set, Xbox LIVE members will be able to download for free the show's pilot episode in high definition for a limited time. Members will also be able to download trailers, teaser scenes and other promotional materials highlighting the "Heroes: Season 1" boxed set on HD DVD.
Already the most affordable high-definition player available, the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player is the best solution for movie lovers seeking HD content in the highest possible resolution. The player's price reduction to $179 (U.S. ERP) continues to set the bar for value, making the Xbox 360 platform the most affordable solution for consumers seeking the broadest, most compelling selection of next-generation gaming and HD video experiences.
"With the price reduction to $179, the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player continues to be the most affordable way to enjoy high definition," said Jeff Bell, corporate vice president of Global Marketing, Interactive Entertainment Business, Entertainment and Devices Division at Microsoft. "From the beginning, we set out to offer Xbox 360 owners an unrivaled high-definition experience, with a choice of optical discs on the HD DVD format and digital downloads through Xbox LIVE Marketplace -- both of which have a selection of the best content Hollywood has to offer. Today's announcements around '300' and 'Heroes: Season 1' are great examples of how we believe HD content can be offered to consumers."
In addition to the price drop, Microsoft is extending Toshiba's highly successful "Perfect Offer" of five free HD DVD discs to Xbox 360 consumers. Previously exclusive to Toshiba HD DVD Players, with the purchase of an Xbox 360 HD DVD Player at the new low price of $179 ERP, consumers can choose five HD DVD titles for free from a selection of 15 popular titles through a mail-in offer. With a retail value of over $140 (U.S.), this promotion makes the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player one of the most compelling offerings for consumers looking to make the leap into HD this holiday season.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070726/aqth069.html?.v=15
david @ Jul 26th 2007 10:46AM
Interesting article, but you still have to have a 360 for the x-box HD player, so the real cost is much higher. I'm thinking a lot of early adopters with 360's have made the purchase already.
It's also kind of ugly to have 2 units (the 360 and the separate HD drive) instead of one. I don't like the appearance it gives. If I was going to go HD-DVD, I would get the Toshiba unit. But I went BRD so the point is moot.
borland502 @ Jul 26th 2007 3:29PM
"Since Engadget is funny enough very slow to put up HD DVD positive news"
Generally, that's because there hasn't been a lot of positive news for HD-DVD. They covered the 3:1 stand-alone decoy, and that's about it. HD-DVD isn't dead, but only a low percentage of PS3 owners need use the Blu-Ray features in order to keep the ratio in Blu's favor.
Be realistic, neither format is yet at the point of mass adoption. So a $200 player is not going to appeal to the common man any more than a $500 player. And the longer the PS3 can keep the ratio skewed, the more businesses will jump the way of Target and Blockbuster.
Toshiba cannot dive much lower on cost. Certainly not to the point of DVD price equivalence. HD-DVD isn't dead, but it is picking up speed on the losing track. It may yet beat out Blu-Ray, but with the same possibility of the PS3 overcoming the Wii.
Paul Fernandez @ Jul 26th 2007 7:44AM
@ Roy
Don't fall into the trap; he's been writing "DUD" on purpose for a while now. It's infantile, really.
@ Nfinity
Thank you for providing some very positive news on the "underdog" format. If "Heroes" being exclusively on HD DVD and cross-promoted with "300," the add-on, and Marketplace doesn't sway thousands of consumers, I don't know what will. Except, maybe, more one-sided articles that only piss off HD DVD supporters and those yet to take the HD plunge who are sick of pro-Sony puppeteers.
News like this and comments from guys like Peter Dille, a Sony VP (visit Gamepro.com) have ensured that 1)I will NEVER buy a PS3, a dedicated Blu-ray player, or movies and 2)I will probably stay away from purchasing any Sony-manufactured items for a long time. The really need to curtail their arrogance and criticism of others while the Wii and DS continue their domination and sales of their precious console are lagging.
Does anyone else feel like Microsoft should say "STFU!" and just buy Sony's game division? You know, to make them enjoy the silence like Depeche Mode? They paid over $300 million for Rare without blinking, you know, so anything's possible. Wow, did I just say that? Time to put on my flame-retardant suit!
Lucky Lefty @ Jul 26th 2007 8:00AM
I am convinvced that you HD-DVD fanboys are truly blind or senile. How hard is it to see that your format has failed. With total standalone player sales below 500,000 after toshiba has practically given them. With Blu-Ray dominating disc sales at 66% to HD-DVD 34% how can you even call this a war. You have Microsoft with their behind the scenes deals and Universal putting out crap titles just to look competitive,is it really that hard to see. In your defense, HD-DVD was never meant to win anyway. It was strictly meant stall Sony's dominace in this new era compact media. Do you all hate Sony that much? Sure they have thier faults and failures, but what comapny doesn't. Were you all really burned by UMD or Minidisc. I'm sure more or just as many people have contacted computer viruses or lost files due to Monopoly Microsoft programs.
I fail to see this hatred for Sony, so please enlighten me. Is it because they are a Japanese base company and you want to be patriotic? Is it because they have dominated the videogame industry and brought it to heights never imagined in the last 17 years? Is it because they were instrumental in the development of the compact disc, walkman, and DVD? Sure they've had the battery fiasco, and the roolkit controversy a couple of years ago, but did you experience any of these things? Did they hurt your feelings that much? Get over it and face reality. Stop wasting your money on HD-DVD. Microsoft has enough dough.
will @ Jul 26th 2007 8:25AM
lucky lefty hd dvd hasnt failed neither has blu ray how come when good things happen for blu ray the first thing you all cheer is the format war is over hd dvd is dead then when hd dvd gets good news ohh there dieing slow there dead there hanging on by a thread. u know what dude and i hope u a dude thats some bitch ass shit. and am gonna tell u why clown. you dont read threads with best buy and circuit city employees going back and forth on which format is living or dieing.i wish i would let a muthafucka tell me how to waste my money realy some of u realy sound like bitches with skirts on.some of this shit i read its fucked up.thesame shit happen when xbox was released after the ps2 now what.
Tim @ Jul 26th 2007 11:53AM
First thing of importance is both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sales (players and more importantly titles) are still very small fry. Either camp can claim what they like but it's more like person A saying he's a winner because 2 people voted for him compared to 1 who voted for person B and yet 9 million people didn't bother to vote for either.
Secondly, things are different in Europe with HD-DVD having more recognition with consumers than in the US, so it's not clear cut just based on US sales. Worse we could end up with one format in US and another in Europe, with once again different versions, features and quality of releases in each region just like we have with the different regional DVD releases at present.
Thirdly, the problem with Sony is in my opinion this...
- Quality of Sony kit has seriously dropped in recent years. I was a Sony fan in a way but they've let the consumer down badly with shoddy goods that don't last and also aren't always "the best" any more.
- Heavy handed, anti-competitive, almost bullyboy tactics. As many Europeans know, Sony's big lawyers unfairly killed importer Lik-Sang. They're one of a number behind attempts to kill other importers like cd-wow. In Europe their tactics would actually be illegal under EU law if they tried to block importing between states.
- DRM (not just Blu-Ray, see the root-kit CD farce) and region restrictions (again impacts on Europeans. HD-DVD doesn't have these restrictions). In the case of Blu-Ray ultimately their plans destroy home media networking and portability (except if you use all Sony kit), in particular through their option of disabling of Mandatory Managed Copy (making it non-mandatory effectively and thus allowing studios to force you to buy a copy for every device you want to play it on and blocking network streaming).
- When it comes to Blu-Ray, high costs for manufacturers and consumers. No cheap Chinese ultra-budget players in discount stores & supermarkets with Blu-Ray. No bargain discs.
- PS3 has suffered badly because Sony decided to use it to plug Blu-Ray.
- Caused an unnecessary format war. They were offered a deal with HD-DVD just like the one they took up back in DVD days to form a single format, but this time they refused and the consumer suffers.
I have nothing against Blu-Ray as a physical format. It's just HD-DVD but more capacity (though the difference is largely irrelevant for HD movies), although more costly to produce. The problem is that the consumer will suffer because of Sony's attitudes.
Lucky Lefty @ Jul 26th 2007 9:23AM
Hi Will(nice name, mine is Will also)! I'm not trying to start a flame war so please don't take this the wrong way. I'm only going to state simple facts. First, HD-DVD is all but nonexistent in all other markets in the world except the U.S. Do a quick google search on HD-DVD in Europe or Japan and you will see. I know this for a fact in Japan as I travel there frequently. The only market HD-DVD is somewhat present in is the U.S. and look at its "success". Sure Blu-Ray penetration in these markets is still small, but you have to keep in mind Blu-ray is still less than a year old and has accomplised more than anything the HD-DVD group can achieve. You have seven out of the eight major Hollywood studios supporting Blu-Ray compared to HD-DVD's four. Blu-ray sports superior technology hence the higher cost(50 gigs Vs 30 gigs, BD-Java when implemented will blow away Micrfosofts HDi, lossless PCM, ect.). You have every RESPECTABLE CE manufacturer supporting Blu-ray, do you see where I'm going.
What does HD-DVD have over Blu-Ray? Support from Universal studios? C'mon, what was the last great movie or blockbuster title they released? As for thier catalog hits, do you really think they will release "Back to the Future Triology" when the most they can possibly sell is 500,000(assuming if every HD-DVD fanboy went out and bought two copies like some of you probably do). And in case you don't know the only reason Universal is exclusive to HD-DVD is because of Microsoft. Did you know Microsoft and NBC have a very strong relationship(Microsoft runs their website MSNBC)? Did you know NBC and Universal are one company, NBCUNIVERSAL? Did you know that Microsoft developed the VC-1 codec because they knew HD-DVD could not handle most of the other codecs without compression problem due to HD-DVD's limited space in cmparison to Blu-Ray? Did you know Microsoft offered Bandai Visual Japan a deal to handle their HD-DVD transfers just so Bandai would release titles on HD-DVD? If they gave this offer to Bandai, how many other studios do you think recieved a similar offer? There has to be a reason for all the VC-1 transfers on HD-DVD(last I check over 90% of HD-DVD's were of VC-1 encodes).
As for your beloved 360? I gotta tell you to enjoy whats sure to be a short lived success. Did you see or read about E3 2007. Sure Sony won't dominate this generation as they did the previous, but I am more than confident they will not only surpass but blow away the 360 as they did Microsoft last box. My reasoning, again look at the numbers. Microsoft has sold a little over 5.6 million 360's since launch in 2005. 75% of those sales came from the U.S.. In other words, the 360 was DOA(dead on arrival)in Japan and most of Europe with exception of the U.K. Plus you have to keep in mind that Sony's PS2 continues to sell out the 360 and the most important number is that there are over 120 million PS2 owners out there waiting to make the jump to nect gen. Sony has managed to sell 3 million PS3 in 6 months off a less than stellar software line up. Imagine whats gonna happen when Sony releases their onslaught of eclxusive come the end of this year. Titles like "Lair", "Heavenly Sword", "Ratchet and Clank", "Uncharted: Drake's Territory", Little Big Planet", ect., ect. Imagine whats going to happen when Sony relaeses these title Christmas, if they were able to sell 3 million PS3's with no line up, what do you really think is gonna happen. Common sense my friend.
Xyzzy @ Jul 26th 2007 9:12AM
"Do you all hate Sony that much?"
It has nothing to do with hate and everything to do with the fact that no consumer should support one company owning the format, media, and movies. Sony has their fingers in everything, and if HD DVD does indeed die (currently FAR from it), Sony will control how you watch movies, how much you pay to watch movies, and on what you watch movies. Not good for consumers at all.
Lucky Lefty @ Jul 26th 2007 9:38AM
Now I'm really confused. How does Sony control Warner Bros., Fox, Paramount, New Line, and Disney? Last I check Sony only controlled Sony Pictures(Columbia/Tri-Star) and MGM. How was Sony's "control" with the compact disc, dvd, and the Playstation brand detrimental to consumers? So according to your argument, better to be under Micrsofts control than Sony. C'mon, you've got to make a better argument than that.
david @ Jul 26th 2007 10:51AM
Yes, Sony developed the format, but not alone. Every other manufacturer (not literally) except Toshiba was involved in the process. And the decisions in the consortium are not controlled by Sony. Although I'll bet they have a huge influence. So supporting any of the manufacturers is only helping stockholders (you and I) and some Japanese fat cat corporate head, regardless of the brand you buy.
will @ Jul 26th 2007 9:38AM
ok you got some points there but if the ps3 was powerful why are they gettin there ass kicked by the wii? and youre right blu ray has more support but why is hd dvd players outselling the sandalone blu ray players?to me its a stupid ass war and so far its lookin like both formats will co-exist my reasons one day blu ray has good news the next day hd dvd has good news the same shit with the game consoles i feel what you are sayin. but thats takin it too far when u tellin people how to waste there money
JJ @ Jul 26th 2007 9:32AM
But x by that comment then its foolish to support HDDVD too since its owned by one company too
last i heard though BluRay was a Consortium and Sony was just the spear head, more than one company owns the rights of Bluray, its just that sony is the more prominent one.
Lucky Lefty @ Jul 26th 2007 9:49AM
JJ, I only used Sony because almost all the HD-DVD guys are convinced this is strictly a Sony format. But you also have to keep in mind this was indeed Sony's baby from the get-go. Do a little research and you will see that Sony developed the first Blu-Ray device in 1998. It was a strictly used as a Hi-def program recorder and was only released in Japan. The specs were modified in what is today's Blu-ray player/recorder.
Xyzzy @ Jul 26th 2007 10:03AM
"How does Sony control Warner Bros., Fox, Paramount, New Line, and Disney? Last I check Sony only controlled Sony Pictures(Columbia/Tri-Star) and MGM. How was Sony's "control" with the compact disc, dvd, and the Playstation brand detrimental to consumers?"
I didn't say Sony owned ALL movie studios, but they own several MAJOR movie studios. Back in the days of the CD and DVD, they didn't have their fingers in as many studios and in addition they didn't control either format.
"So according to your argument, better to be under Micrsofts control than Sony."
Microsoft only controls the codec (VC-1). They have no movie studios, they have no hardware, they have no format.
Universal only controls the movie studio. They have no hardware, they have no format.
Toshiba only controls the hardware. They have no hardware, they have no format (unless you want to say regular DVDs are owned by Toshiba, but that would be a ridiculous statement).
There's a reason the United States government is separated into three parts - to avoid one part from controlling everything. Same thing in this case with Sony.
Sony owns the hardware (PS3 + players), format (BD - despite what anyone else says, they're always first in line to hype/lie about the format), and movies (MGM, Columbia, TriStar, Sony Pictures... Ouch).
So tell me how that could possibly benefit the consumer?
Xyzzy @ Jul 26th 2007 10:11AM
Lefty, your stats are a bit off:
"Microsoft has sold a little over 5.6 million 360's since launch in 2005. 75% of those sales came from the U.S.. In other words, the 360 was DOA.....Sony has managed to sell 3 million PS3 in 6 months off a less than stellar software line up."
Umm, Microsoft has sold nearly 12 million 360s worldwide... Not sure where you got 5.6 mil from...
I also don't believe that Sony has sold 3 million PS3s, but I'm not 100% sure that's wrong. Regardless, have you noticed that the Game Boy Advanced has been outselling the PS3 lately...?
I'm not especially fond of Microsoft (I'm a UNIX admin :) ), I just don't want to support one company controlling all three facets of the movie industry is all. You can think that's a lame reason, but I don't see how your statements could convince anyone to go Blu-Ray either (if HD DVD catches on, the "BD studios" will switch).
domerdel @ Jul 26th 2007 11:20AM
@Xyzzy: GBA is outselling PS3.... but what does this have to do with the format war? Plus GBA is not even in the same category of consoles... if this were a gaming forum, you could say GBA/DS are outselling the PSP ;)
JJ @ Jul 26th 2007 10:46AM
Well WIll ot be honest the Wii is defying everything really, its selling better than the 360AND the PS3 (although thats not hard to do since the PS2 has been doing that too since the launch of each system, as has the DS and more recetnly the PSP)
But the fact that even with the PS3 as the "main" players (Which isnt a bad thing because many review sites says it was an AWESOME player for when it came out) it still sells more software (Where the money is made) than its rival HDDVD thats been out for half a year longer (If not more).
Now i dont have any exact preference for a HD players althought i DO own a PS3 (I own all 3 consoles mind you) and i Do buy BLuray discs every now again (mainly just big name, SFX intensive titles really)
But i still believe this "war" has a ways to go and i believe this is just and in between technology to be honest, i think the Bluray and HDDVD camps need to come together on this one.
But on the plus side, this format war DOES benefit consumers in the end since each side will try to one up the other so they dont gain any more ground and vice versa.
Its a lot like the console race, yeah each console has its ups and downs but at the end of the day its not which format people like or which console... its the software or the movies that make the difference.
People dont buy this things just to stare at the box, they buy them so they can watch/play movies and games they enjoy. The unit itself could be made by anyone and most people wouldnt care as long as they get their entertainment
Alex @ Jul 26th 2007 12:11PM
stepping aside all the fanboy b-s, this makes me think the $200 HD-DVD players are looking tasty for WalMart now.
Britboyj27 @ Jul 26th 2007 12:23PM
Oh please, the reason the PS2 sold so well was it was cheap. It stayed ahead of the price-drops for the X-Box and, for a while, the Gamecube. It was held loft by what is effectively gift sales every holiday season.
I had AT LEAST 50 PS3's on the shelf at the store where I work, consistently, for most of the holiday season, shit, Best Buy GAVE the damn things away when you bought a Sony TV and they STILL had tons of stock.
But this isn't about the Playstation 3.
Neither format is going anywhere for a while. You have dual format players and discs soon. It's not as simple as either camp would make you think.
Also - Lefty - HD-DVD is the predominant format in Europe from what I saw to my recent trip to the UK, Ireland and Germany.
borland502 @ Jul 26th 2007 3:38PM
"HD-DVD is the predominant format in Europe from what I saw to my recent trip to the UK, Ireland and Germany."
Was that trip before March? Because, yes Virginia, it was the predominant format there at the time. The PS3 changed that, which isn't difficult considering less than 10,000 HD-DVD players were sold in say France vs. 2,000 or so Blu-Ray players. I don't have exact figures, but the sales for both sides were pretty damn low in each EU country.
Now Blu is ascendant in the EU as it is everywhere else. Not victorious, but its star is brighter at the moment.
reddplague @ Jul 26th 2007 12:38PM
Wow! people get so heated about this format war. Why get so upset over something that none of you will profit from. Unless you guys have shares in Toshiba's HD-DVD then you have every reason to dislike Blu-ray but, if your just the avreage joe then, why all the blu-ray hate.
I hate to agree with Lefty but he maded some good points. Unless HD-DVD can get more studios to release titles then Blu-ray will be the player people choose. I will choose the format with the most content not.
I don't want a expensive DVD player that will only play some HD movies. When Universal studios goes netrual what will you guys say then.
All the news I've been reading lately is infavor of Blu-ray not HD-DVD sure HD-DVD had the Xbox news but what else has been relased I haven't heard anything in months.
Angus_rg @ Jul 26th 2007 1:19PM
I swear, this war is bringing out the biggest technological gossip queens I've ever seen. They still sell HD-DVD players on line, as well as HD-DVD xbox add on. The PS3 is still the most bought player, even by those actually intending to use it as a BR player. So what, we have another place selling an over priced player, yeah, that will make a dent.
Jeff N. @ Jul 26th 2007 2:24PM
I think the format war is going to last a good while longer. The sad thing is I would already own a Hi Def player if this format war wasn't going on.
Ashley Jones @ Jul 26th 2007 2:53PM
Ok what I don't understand is all these people talking about $200 HD-DVD players. Most of the TV's being sold today are 1080p( or 720p but why buy HD if that's what your going to get ), so why buy a 1080i player. To get a true 1080p HD-DVD player your paying as much if not more than a blu-ray player.
Also what happens when we go beyond 1080p. Your not going to convince me we're not in the next 2-3 years. HD-DVD is already running at storage capacity. What do we do then. Chunk all players and movies and buy a new format? Blu-ray players just needs a firmware update and they're ready to roll again.
Nfinity @ Jul 26th 2007 3:14PM
You do realize that almost all HD TV sets sold SO FAR are 90% 720p TVs and most of the sets still being sold are 1080i not 1080p. The new batch of TVs coming out are 1080p. We will need at least 2-3 years for 1080p sets to saturate the market properly.
Second, you do know that most of the TVs sold are 42" and below. You can see the DIFFERENCE of 1080p resolution only on TV sets above 50". If anyone else tells you they can see a difference on 42" set is simply lying or imagining.
So that makes you wonder, if you have 720p/1080i TVs out there and you can see the difference of 1080p only on 50"+ TVs why is everyone pushing 1080p. Simple, so you can spend your money for NO improvement in quality unless again you are buying a flat screen (LCD or Plasma) over 50" and these are still at $4k+. Sure, it makes perfect sense to go 1080p if you have a huge projector or 52", 57" 60"+ TV. You do need 1080p for ultimate quality. I'm not saying 1080p has no application, it's a GOOD thing overall, but is more of MARKETING then the real necessity.
Second, HD-DVD is not running at full capacity as VC1 codec is very effective. Even for games, technology improves so fast that you'll see much content delivered in real time rendering (read gaming) and you say as if HD DVD is stuck at 15/30gb discs while Blu-Ray is coming out with 200gb discs tomorrow. HD DVD will also grow in capacity. 51gb discs are already here, it's just a matter of time until they show up on the market as they were approved just recently and will continue to grow as need rises.
Let's be real here and try to think before you actually start blurting out nonsense.
Segarsj @ Aug 2nd 2007 5:19PM
@ Ashley Jones
"...beyond 1080p" I'm assuming you're referring to 2k, 4k, and 6k resolutions, as those are assumed to be the successors to today's HD content.
Here's the problem with your statement. There is absolutely no way that any HD player released to date will be able to support native presentations of resolutions as intensive as 2k, 4k or 6k. There is not enough storage capacity to contain these on current disc media, but more importantly there are no "consumer" displays/projectors that can support those resolutions natively either. I mean, we're still fighting to get HDTV's in every home, right? So mass market saturation of TV's that support 2k, 4k, and 6k resolutions natively are much more than a couple years off, at least by my estimation.
Ok, back to your statement. A firmware upgrade is solely software based, as I'm sure you know, and as such it does not have the potential to compensate for a lack of hardware requirements that would need to be included to support these resolutions internally.
So, to sum it all up due to the practical limitations of current HD disc media/hardware (whether it be Blu-ray or HD DVD) there's no need for resolutions beyond 1920x1080p. Even if the players could support the higher resolutions there would be absolutely no point to invest in them due to the fact that consumer displays are unable to display these resolutions natively.
The only problem that I truly have with your statement is that you (you're not alone on this either) believe that firmware upgrades are the definite cure for all possible maladies that could arise. I'm not holding this against you of course, it just upsets me because I know that so many other people out there believe firmware has the ability to future proof their investments. While it can to some degree, it is limited by the internal hardware and that cannot be upgraded outside of purchasing a new player.
I hope this helps.
Fredster @ Jul 26th 2007 3:03PM
@reddplague
Can you please link where you got the info that Universal is going neutral? I'd really like to read that article! If you don't have it then don't post ridiculous comments like that. The certainty that Universal will go neutral is just as much as Fox and Disney will release movies in HD DVD, what will YOU guys going to say then? Without references that information ain't worth sh*t.
Nfinity @ Jul 26th 2007 4:38PM
Borland502, how can you say that price has no relevance? That's the WHOLE point. PS3 sold as much as they sold (even thought no impressive) because of the DEAL you get. For $500 for the 20gb version you got a hi-def player and a gaming console. And keep this in mind, PS3 started SELLING despite the fact that THERE WAS NO GAMES, and very little movies.
Having HD DVD players at sub $200 price is what's going to win this war. Content is a bit stronger on Blu-Ray side if you look at number of studios (though Fox and Disney and MGM haven't really released any titles), but it's far from HD DVD not having great movies. So content is really there. Universal/Warner/Paramount trio, all in all HAVE GREAT movies.
Second, Toshiba CAN go lower on price. Blu-Ray fanboys have been crying "oh it can't go lower then $300, and Toshiba is desperate etc etc" well guess what. We are $179 and $199 prices for X360 addon and standalones and the CHINESE haven't even STARTED yet. You are forgetting that HD DVD is MUCH CHEAPER to produce.
Do you know that ValueElectronics, an official Toshiba distributor online have SOLD ALL OF THEIR HD-A2 inventory in A DAY as soon as they had the $199 price up. Robin, the owner, has stated so on AVS Forums. It was I believe almost a thousand units (don't hold on this), but it's amazing nonetheless. Price, my friend, PLAYS a main and ONLY role. There's some rumors that we might be even seeing $99 Chinese HD DVD players for Christmas.
I don't understand you Blu-Ray fans. I really can't. You are screaming "OH they are desperate" at $199 prices and going lower, but what I don't understand, what do you actually support, paying cheap and high quality electronics, or paying high prices for something you can't even really use today but will "POSSIBLY" use in the future? I don't really get it.
I mean I make over $100k a year, have both PS3 and HD DVD and still support HD DVD as I have personally experienced that in many cases HD DVD has better quality and not to mention that it's cheaper. I simply refuse to pay for something 2-3 times the price on account of PROMISES. I want to watch great quality hi-def, right now, cheap. That's it. I want to save money too, I can imagine that a regular medium income consumer will want to do the same.
What do you people go and tell someone when they ask you "hey buddy, what should I buy for watching hi-def movies". You say, oh buy a $500 Blu-ray player because $199 HD DVD player has a bit less bit-rate throughput and somewhat smaller storage, but you should spend $300 more for POSSIBLE improvements later if ever cause you know, you don't see it now? I mean how do you justify your suggestions? You must be lying when someone asks you, well do you see any difference in quality? What do you say - oh Blu-ray looks so much better? Ridiculous.
Xyzzy @ Jul 26th 2007 4:13PM
"Also what happens when we go beyond 1080p. Your not going to convince me we're not in the next 2-3 years. HD-DVD is already running at storage capacity. What do we do then. Chunk all players and movies and buy a new format? Blu-ray players just needs a firmware update and they're ready to roll again."
Wow... This comment is so dumb, it really doesn't even need a response. Blu-Ray is so technologically advanced that it can, with a mere firmware upgrade, morph to support resolutions higher than 1080p! It's got magic smoke in it, I tell ya, magic smoke!
Ashley Jones @ Jul 26th 2007 4:37PM
So what's the limiting factor I'll admit I don't know enough about the internal electronics to know if they can all be updated properly, but the decoder can be updated by a firmware and HDMI can handle the resolution.
I was refering more to the limiting factor of the size of the HD-DVD disk.
Ashley Jones @ Jul 26th 2007 5:14PM
Dude You just keep contradicting your self. You say that Blu-ray supporters must be lying if they say they see a difference, but then say that you think HD-DVD has better quality ????
I tried to reply to your response, but it wouldn't go through.
I bought a Sharp Aquos LC52D62U right before Superbowl for $2600 a far cry from your $4000 and it's 1080p. I've known several people who've bought TV's since and the smallest has been 47" and it was 1080p( Westinghouse)
VC-1 was designed for interlaced content and has had problems with 1080p nothing major but was one of the reasons blu-ray hasn't used it yet. Even so unless HD-DVD ups it's capacity it won't be able to support higher resolutions in the future.
You do understand how they made the 51gb disk don't you. they added 2gb per layer and added a layer. The problem here is that the current hd-dvd players will not be able to support it. The reason HD-DVD players are so much cheaper is because Blu-ray requires a more complex lens for it's laser so that it can focus on more than 2 layers. HD-DVD uses a very similar laser to current dvd players which can only focus on 2. In order to increase capacity HD-DVD will have to use the more complex lens, essentially turning it into Blu-ray with slightly less storage per layer.
Ashley Jones @ Jul 26th 2007 7:51PM
Well here's a few
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/15/tosh_touts_51gb_hddvd/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/11/toshiba_45gb_hd-dvd/
http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/video/dvd-hdd-players-and-receivers/blu-ray-and-hd-dvd/features/7-things-you-didnt-know-about-hd-dvd
I originally read about it on the TDK site. I'll keep looking for the article
borland502 @ Jul 27th 2007 10:49AM
Nfinity, I wasn't suggesting that price never matters. I was suggesting that price differences amoung the stand-alone players are irrelevant in the HD media market right now. Unless Toshiba can dive to $99 or below, it will not matter.
Whatever its merits or lack thereof in the gaming realm, the PS3 has dominated the HD media market space. As long as the PS3 has such as skewed sales ratio, the low "attach" rate or whatever will not matter since that small portion makes up for any stand-alone imbalance. The PS3 will carry the Blu-Ray players through early adoption and into mainstream purchasing. The 360 add-on has not delivered the same results despite the higher install base of the main console.
As for recommendations...my non-techocrat friends are not even considering adoption of either format right now. And Sony's trojan horse strategy appears to be working from all available data.
HD-DVD is not dead, but make no mistake, they are on a downward slope at the moment. If they cannot achieve at least equalibrium in the holiday season then they are finished. And yes, you will find sub-$100 HD-DVD players at that point, just as Dreamcasts went on sale for $50 a pop.
Shelly @ Jul 26th 2007 4:58PM
http://www.pricefad.com/chart.php?&n=Blu-ray Player&u=priceguru
Alex @ Jul 26th 2007 5:02PM
ashley most people don't need 1080p unless they have a 50"+ screen and sit close it. Further, no HD players could be firmware upgraded for a newer format.
Ashley Jones @ Jul 26th 2007 5:47PM
A 50 inch isn't that big these days. Most people I know go for that and only one went for less. A 47. Unless they where buying it for a non-main tv
Again I ask. What's the limitation? I'm not disagreeing with you, but you seem positive. It can't be the decoder, we know that can be updated by firmware. So it must be something else. I'd assumed the rest of the electronics acted similar to a video card displaying the decoded data to the screen.
Nfinity @ Jul 26th 2007 5:47PM
==
Dude You just keep contradicting your self. You say that Blu-ray supporters must be lying if they say they see a difference, but then say that you think HD-DVD has better quality ????
===
First of all I'm not contradicting myself. I have BOTH, unlike MOST Blu-Ray asshats who are praising something without really experiencing the other. I say Blu-Ray people saying that Blu-Ray looks better ARE lying or imaging. I have both HD DVD in my house and Blu-Ray and I play them on my Pioneer Elite 50" plasma with audio components from Denon and 7.1 Klipsh Reference series setup. HD DVD almost ALWAYS outperfoms Blu-Ray visually. So when I say that it looks better, I'm not speculating, I'm talking from experience. EVERYONE who has both agrees with me.
So there's no contradicting here.
I did underestimate the pricing a bit. The prices you mentioned for TVs are still around $3k for 50"+. This is still a lot. Not for me personally, but for a majority of people. I did underestimate the pricing a bit, I'm looking at a bit better quality TVs anyways. Sharp Aquios is not bad though. That's a good deal.
==
VC-1 was designed for interlaced content and has had problems with 1080p nothing major but was one of the reasons blu-ray hasn't used it yet.
==
Rubbish. This is why HD DVD from the begginning outperformed Blu-Ray with VC1 encoding. Because it looks like shit right? This is why Toshiba's HD DVD player won SOUND & VISION Player of 2006 Awards. Cause it's all crap, right.
==
Even so unless HD-DVD ups it's capacity it won't be able to support higher resolutions in the future.
===
And Blu-Ray players today will? Now you are talking STRAIGHT out of your ass. They both support 1080p resolutions and IF higher res technology comes out, you will have to throw away your Blu-Ray player as well sorry.
==
You do understand how they made the 51gb disk don't you. they added 2gb per layer and added a layer. The problem here is that the current hd-dvd players will not be able to support it.
=====
Jesus Christ, where do you get this information. This is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.
Sure they added 2gb per layer AND? They increased the freakin' storage capacity. WHO TOLD YOU they won't be supported by current HD-DVD player. Can you point me to that article please.
==== Toshiba continues to improve HD DVD storage capacity. At the HD DVD Promotion Group's press conference this evening, the company announced it has developed 51GB triple-layer rewritable and ROM media.
This capacity is up from the companys previous explorations of a higher-capacity 45GB triple-layer disc. Currently, HD DVD maxes out at a 30GB dual-layer disc. This capacity is 1GB greater than rival Blu-ray Disc, which tops out at 50GB.
The company spoke in terms of getting the disc approved as part of the HD DVD spec by the end of 2007. ========
You see when THEY said they have it and are waiting for certification by HD DVD Group, this means it's A MATTER OF TIME when the discs will come out. Having STRICT HD-DVD Group requirements, all new advances in technology for HD DVD will BE APPROVED by the Group. Being part of HD DVD Specs, means that it will FULLY COMPLY with current HD DVD players. This is the ESSENCE of HD DVD, compatibility.
It is more likely that your existing Blu-Ray players WON'T play new content that conforms to BD+ protection as new players will run protection in virtual memory space of the player.
You are just blurting out, I'm sorry to say it, complete nonsense.
Corpsy @ Jul 26th 2007 5:30PM
I can't understand why anyone would be a Blu-Ray fanboy. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the technology, but who wants to hand Sony a monopoly over all physical HD content? Movies would stay at the $25-30 price mark forever. And saying that HD-DVD don't store enough is ridiculous, you can get Terminator 2 in 1080p on a regular DVD.
All this taking sides is silly anyway. Anyone else remember when Steven Spielburg said he'd only release his movies on Divx discs and not DVD?
The fact of the matter is that mass adoption is still a few years off. By then we should have a $250 player that supports both formats. When that becomes the player of choice, that's what all players will be from then on. Since everyone will have a dual-format player, both disc formats will survive. Since both formats will survive, distributors will stop taking sides and start using whichever is most cost competitive, meaning you'll start to see regular versions of movies on HD-DVD, and the extended special editions with all the extras on the BLU-RAY.
mike @ Jul 26th 2007 8:22PM
@Corpsy.
I wish that would happen. That way I could buy cheaper HD-dvd movies without paying for all the stupid extra features and bonus crap like I am now with DVD. I dont buy dvds anymore unless they are $10 or less (so I usualy have to wait a couple years after a release). The reason is because I dont feel its fair I have to spend $20+ for a movie thats new and loaded with special features ill never even look at. If HD-dvd went movie only I would be thrilled. But what you said is not going to happen.