Cringely thinks the Apple TV will hurt Blu-ray and HD DVD sales
We know, we know, he is hardly the authority on anything HD, as we all learned from his PBS special on the subject, but he might be going a little too far on this one. The Apple TV does a great job at what is it designed for: getting mainstream America's content on their HDTV, but it couldn't be any worse at HD and still support it. How can a 4 GB HD file (Yes that is the maximum file size) that doesn't support surround sound, even begin to compare with either HD DVD's 30GB or Blu-ray's 50GB? Sure it will only be the movie and not all the extra stuff that some of you love so much, but even the main feature on HD DVD or Blu-ray is well over 15GB and that is with only one sound track! Is this guy mad, or do people really not care if their HD looks good, as long as the content is labeled as HD? Just to lay it all out for you, here is a comparison between HD DVD and the Apple TV.| HD DVD | Apple TV | Comments / notes | |
|---|---|---|---|
| MSRP | $399 | $299 | While it appears Apple TV wins this one, unlike the Apple MSRP, the HD DVD is flexible. |
| Maximum Bit rate |
36.5 Mbps |
5.0 Mbps |
No comparison. |
| Maximum File Size | ~30 GB |
4 GB | While the movie can't use up the entire 30 GB there is still no comparison. |
| Available HD movies for sale today | 163 | 0 | This might change, but who knows when? |
| Video CODECs | VC1, MPEG2, H.264 | H.264 | Although the Apple TV supports MPEG2 and MPEG4, not for HD. |
| Audio outputs by player | DD, DTS, TrueHD, DTSHD, PCM | PCM (stereo only) | This is the biggest limitation. |
Filed under: Media streamers, Apple
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Justin @ Mar 23rd 2007 12:29PM
This is just ridiculous.
Maximilian Garcia @ Mar 23rd 2007 12:41PM
I agree, Apple doesn't have all studio studio support yet.
-Max
drew @ Mar 23rd 2007 12:40PM
ha! 720p24 at 5Mb/s at most. boy, i don't think that qualifies as hd. 720p is hd, but this is just pushing it. gg apple. nice comparison ben.
FrankTheCrank @ Mar 23rd 2007 12:43PM
Oh yeah, WE ALL LOVE DRM...
Why don't you just shove another pie full of DRM up in my face??
As if I were one of those idiots who buys songs from iTunes.
JSM @ Mar 23rd 2007 2:06PM
forgetting all the drm issues, the apple TV is NOT HD. low bandwidth 720 is not HD when 1080p sets are selling below $1,000. Yeah, Yeah, 5M folks, give or take, bought or will buy in the next 12 months before they disappear from the market, 720p sets and don't benefit as much from 1080, but even they are getting hosed by apple offering them 5mbps bandwidth video compressed to 4gb (max) files and calling it hd. The next generation product may be interesting, but this one looks far too much like a scam on the consumer.
And speaking as a man who likes 320kb mp3s but finds the itunes low encoding tolerable - video is not audio - the flaws of low bitrates are real, apparent, and easy to see.
siva @ Mar 23rd 2007 2:09PM
Your comparison is really messed up!!
While I am not that excited about AppleTV, the comparisons don't include network downloadable content. While the quality may not be there, downloadable content is not possible on HD-DVD players. May be you should limit your comparisons to XBox360 and such and AppleTV.
Ben @ Mar 23rd 2007 2:16PM
Actually HD DVD does support downloadable content, which is why it has a network port.
But either way, the Apple TV is better for downloadable content, just not downloadable HD content.
It seems the Xbox360 rules this market right now, since there are actually downloadable HD movies for it and the bit rate is considerably higher, with real surround sound to boot.
Greg K @ Mar 23rd 2007 6:15PM
Ben - try Connect360 on your mac - it's a permanent connection between my iBook's iPhotos and iTunes and my 360/HDTV.
Angry Black man @ Mar 23rd 2007 3:56PM
I use iTunes, I own an Ipod, this is still overpriced and underwhelming..
Photos aren't that big of a deal (from this thing) as I have a couple of photo frames and 2 tvs that have usb ports for this sort of thing.
Also, I listen to music via my SONOS sytem. Now that's not the norm ( I agree), but I own a front projector and I'd be damned to use that just so I can see what playing or to select something music related.
epobirs @ Mar 23rd 2007 3:50PM
Considering Cringely's track record, this means Apple TV is doomed.
Greg K @ Mar 23rd 2007 6:40PM
Ben --
Fair points on Connect360; I guess it depends on your priorities. To be fair though, it does work with WMV video now (in addition to iTunes and iPhoto, movies from the folder are also shared.
Dan in DCVA @ Mar 23rd 2007 4:03PM
Ouch, Ben. You're charts and statistics are harshing my Jobs-reality-distortion-field mellow.
OK. Point taken. You win. AppleTV sucks at everything related to HD (except displaying an iPhoto library, which, I admit, is no big whoop). This thing should be thought of as an iTunes extender and **only** as an iTunes extender.
None the less, you have to give them props for actively telling people with old SD TVs to get lost. They don't care that there are newer SD TVs out there with component video inputs that can use the AppleTV, but they don't bother **explaining** that. Their attitude is that you either own a HDTV or you can go f*** yourself with the other cavemen.
This is a small consolation for those of us who had higher hopes from this company.
Ben @ Mar 23rd 2007 4:04PM
Dan,
You misunderstood me.
I ordered my Apple TV when they were announced, fully understanding it's limitations.
I have it now and love it. It is the PERFECT addition to my HT, right next to my Series3 for HDTV, Blu-ray player for HD movies and Xbox360 for HD games. I can finally enjoy the best of both world in regards to all my HD content.
tranzparentl @ Mar 23rd 2007 4:24PM
I don't understand why someone would buy an Apple TV when an Xbox 360 does that and a lot more....
Ben @ Mar 23rd 2007 2:22PM
This is an easy one.
I have a Xbox360 and a MCE 2005 box.
I do not enjoy listening to my music on either.
I don't like the navigation, I don't like the interface, I don't like the noise.
Most of all I don't like having to sync my music collection between MCE and iTunes since I keep my iTunes on a Mac and not on my MCE box. Sure I could use sync software if I had itunes on my MCE, but that would mean I would have to go in my closet to sync my iPod.
Photos are another issue all together, again the Xbox360 isn't as good at displaying my pictures that I store in iPhoto on my HDTV as the Apple TV.
I do see your point, if you don't use iPhoto and you don't use itunes or even an iPod, then this device is uesless, but if you do it is the best!
Robert X. Cringely @ Mar 23rd 2007 4:33PM
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis of my column. What it brought to mind is a lesson Adam Osborne taught the PC world back in 1979 -- the power of adequacy. The Osborne One was a piss-poor computer but the price was right and the performance was ADEQUATE. The same applies to Apple TV. No it won't satisfy videophiles, but then it isn't intended to. It is intended to serve an audience that wants things to be quick and easy. They bought a cheap 720p HD set at Best Buy and would like to watch some movies on it.... TONIGHT. Well the Apple TV can do that. Five mbps is a pretty darned good data rate for H.264, especially it is is pared down to 24p. Yes, the sound isn't what you'd like, but that may be the whole point. What Apple is trying to do is carve out a new video niche here and they need the assistance of the movie studios to do that. The niche is h.264-only, 5 mbps, and limited to stereo, which is to say perfectly adequate for the very 85 percent of the video market Apple is aiming for.
Ben @ Mar 23rd 2007 3:58PM
Robert,
I agree with you on this one 100% and it pains me every time I witness it. YouTube is proof of this content of being ADEQUATE.
But these same people will not buy HD DVD or Blu-ray and thus sales will not be effected.
In the long term there will be another question. HD DVD or Blu-ray will only surpass DVD when they cost the same, otherwise the ADEQUATE people will just keep buying DVD and eventually downlaodable content.
Larry @ Mar 23rd 2007 4:59PM
I think the Apple TV, the Xbox360, and at some point the PS3 will offer millions of people an opportunity to settle. Despite all the hype 720p is good enough for most people. It looks better than standard definition and it is convenient in terms of download times.
walk2k @ Mar 23rd 2007 5:31PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA......
Wow thanks for the laugh, Apple.
Hmm.. 640x480 QuickTime videos vs 1920x1080 AVC/MP4, VC-1 high-bitrate videos... Yeah real competition there.
Ben @ Mar 23rd 2007 4:01PM
I've used it, still doesn't improve the UI on the 360, the noisy fan or help me when my computer isn't on. Plus I don't think the playcount or smart playlists work. Also no video for my video podcasts, which obviously aren't HD.
Mickeleh @ Mar 25th 2007 2:25AM
Ben,
Don't be too hard Cringely. Check the date on his TV special? It's 1998. How much of anything any of us knew about HDTV then is still true today?
dionysus @ Mar 26th 2007 12:59AM
Apple TV is a joke, and itself a piece of junk.
rickrick @ Mar 26th 2007 1:48PM
Look at the first gen iPod compared to the latest and how often Apple has upgraded them. If iTV does reasonably well it wont be long before Version 2 is released with will more then likely contain a bigger harddrive, true HD support, faster bandwith and who knows what else.
Right now
HD DVD/BUE-RAY > First Gen iTV
Gen 2 iTV > HD DVD/BUE-RAY
Scott J. @ Mar 29th 2007 11:20AM
I was looking forward to the Apple TV after it was pre-announced in September. I thought it had potential. Then in January, when they said that it wasn't quite ready, but would ship in February, I was still looking forward to it:
http://www.bigscreen.com/journal.php?id=436
By the time it finally got released, my excitement for it was already starting to wane. When a product is delayed multiple times, has a limited audience due to some inherent design choices, and more details were beginning to be released about it, I saw its potential diminishing.
Now that it has been released, it's time for the product to stand on its own. Unfortunately, it seems that Apple wasn't quite ready for it to be released, and the design limitation of HD-only sets wasn't the only limitation they built into it.
The more I hear about the product, the less and less interested I am in it. People complain about DirecTV and their "HD-lite" service, but this product seems to take HD-lite to a new level. How can a product be considered truly HD when it is limited to 720p, stereo sound, and a 4GB file limit? On iTunes right now, the standard definition version of Pirates of the Caribbean clocks in at 1.73GB for a 2:30 movie. On top of that, I would have thought that iTunes would have some "HD" content online by now, but still nothing.
So, let's move over to music, as this is one of the things that held much of my interest. I have an AudioTron music player now, but it is several years old, and I would like to be able to play lossless music and see track info, album art on the screen, and maybe even a nice visualization while the music is playing. I haven't drunk the iTunes/iPod koolaid yet, but I'm not against doing so if it results in a nice coherent music system.
I don't care much for iTunes as a music manager, but I can appreciate the value that the closed system of iTunes, an iPod, and the Apple TV could provide. I'd be willing to buy an iPod along with the Apple TV to make the system complete.
Not much has been said about the Apple TV's music capabilities, so either that means that it isn't significant, or given that the Apple TV doesn't do anything with music that a $70 dock for an iPod doesn't already do.
I'm still interested in seeing this device in person, but the reality that Apple is presenting the public with so far will limit its appeal to those who will buy anything with an Apple logo on it, and those who are less discriminating in their purchases.
Maybe all these shortcomings will be addressed with future updates, who knows?
tkoonce @ Jun 7th 2007 10:07AM
How about Apple just sending you a HD movie via the mail on a
standard DVD. (cost for Apple: 5 cents for the disc plus 39 cents for
postage, alot cheeper than Apple buying tons of bandwidth) This now
opens HD Media up to everyone. If you want to watch your purchased
disc you need iTunes and/or an Apple TV.
Let's just say as an example its called a "iTunes Disc" or "iDisc"
that you just unlock the disc with your iTunes account. This would
also give customers a backup of all of your HD media purchased from
iTunes too.
Once bandwidth to the home increases or is cheaper, customers can then
download HD content from the internet. Apple can give customers
"download via internet" or "send the disc" options in iTunes. Just a
thought!