Where are the official HD DVD vs Blu-ray sales numbers?
Now that the format war is in full swing and CES is over, we are left wondering where the official format war sales numbers are? We have seen the number of PS3 sold as well as the number of Xbox360 add on drives and while some studios have made claims to having the number 1 selling movie on both formats, neither have stated any hard numbers for those of us keeping track of that sort of thing. Sure Fox has a report indicating that Blu-ray movies are out selling HD DVD, but once again only a chart and no numbers. DVDEmpire.com now has sales figures from their site posted and they seem to be consistent with Fox's numbers. Last year HD DVD was the leader but more recently Blu-ray has started to outsell HD DVD. This makes sense considering the number of Blu-ray players on the market compared to HD DVD. Either way we will be waiting till we see some hard numbers from both sides before proclaiming victory like some people. **Update** We really want to know how many movies were sold, not players or number of titles available.
[Via VideoBusiness.com]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Mike Botros @ Jan 18th 2007 2:59PM
Not to mention that it helps when stores like best buy only have BD players being demo-ed and HD-DVD is sitting on the shelf with no TV. And that the BD movies are facing the consumer right when they walk in, and the HD-DVD movies are on the back of the rack. Kind of an unfair advantage there. BD is being shoved their their throats while HD-DVD is just chillaxin back there sayin, "I don't care what people think, I know I look better than BD."
But if they had the same movie playing back on HD-DVD using VC1 and BD using MPEG-2 consumers would definately be saying that it looks better in HD-DVD than BD. And that the movies are cheaper on HD-DVD than BD.
hmurchison @ Jan 18th 2007 3:21PM
There are plenty of numbers to be had.
The HD DVD Promotions Group announced North American sales of 175k players. NPD announced that an estimated 92k HD DVD add on were sold. Thus it's safe to assume that the remaining market for Toshiba players was about 80k.
This thread has information stating that the estimated standalone Blu-ray players are likely 25k
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070115-8625.html
Warners keynote at CES showed that HD DVD movies outsold Blu-ray by 2:1 according to their data.
The numbers are becoming more clear. Without the PS3 and a studio advantage Blu-ray would be dead. They are championing their content advantage whilst HD DVD will be shoring up their players with at least 6 new models coming out this year. The War has just officially started. Now we get to see who executes their strategy the best.
Scott Hettrick @ Jan 20th 2007 7:55PM
The actual numbers are so small for both formats at this point that it's not likely that any studio is going to announce unit sales for any specific title until you start seeing title sales in the hundreds of thousands of units and especially the first title to hit the 1 million unit mark, as was the case with DVD.
Boasting about sales of a few thousand units versus a thousand or so less of the other format doesn't really serve anyone.
The only valid measure right now is the aggregate numbers of titles sold (not shipped), which, as you noted, is what Fox reported at CES in the following statement in a release that also included a chart:
"... Blu-ray sales performance surpassed HD-DVD for the first time the week of December 24 and did so by an impressive 20 per cent. Whats more, by the end of the first quarter our research shows the sales gap widening to Blu-ray outselling HD DVD by a 3.5-to-1 ratio, noted Mike Dunn, President Worldwide, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment.
Scott Hettrick
Steve @ Jan 18th 2007 3:28PM
Mike - sorry to burst your bubbles but you obviously haven't been up to date since 6 months ago. Blu-ray and HD-DVD are equal in terms of Picture Quality, movies like 'The Wild' and 'Crank' will match anything HD-DVD has to offer. I own both formats, King Kong being the best in the HD-DVD camp. Lately I've been more impress with Blu-ray then HD-DVD. I rent movies all the time in both formats. I'm pretty tired of seeing the same interface on Universal movies. Soon BD movies will use AVC MPEG-4 codec which will match anything VC-1 has to offer.
zombieflanders @ Jan 18th 2007 3:29PM
He's talking official numbers, not promotion group and internet board numbers.
And where do you get "6 new models"? There's only been one from each side. Blu-ray has the Samsung, with two possible "Sapphire" models and a rumored Pioneer. For HD DVD, there's still only Toshiba, with 1 extra model. The Meridian was a non-announcement ("We're supporting HD DVD tech"), Onkyo didn't state when it would be available, and the Chinese companies didn't even pipe up after the announcements. So, 1 and 1.
Sy @ Jan 18th 2007 3:52PM
@Mike B ...
Early BD titles PQ sucks ...I give you that. But Sony and the Blu-Ray side has improved drastically. Recent BD titles like Crank either matched or exceeded HD DVD titles in terms of PQ.
hmurchison @ Jan 18th 2007 3:58PM
Promotion Group numbers ARE official. Just as the numbers from the BDA are official in my eyes. Who else is supposed to know more than these groups regarding sales?
Ahhhhh I see...since Zombieflanders didn't get the information that "he" wanted the announcement that
Lite On
ED Digital
Shinco
Alco
Toshiba HD-A20
Meridian High End player
Onkyo HD DVD player http://www.onkyousa.com/news.cfm?id=2
Doesn't exist huh? That's sounds a bit like your own self importance usurping reality. I'm perfectly fine with believing that if 4 companies state they plan to deliver HD DVD players in Q2 and Onkyo says they will deliver a player they will. I don't need dates to validate it.
I believe Sony and Samsung are coming out with their units as well despite a dearth of information. What consumers and retailers want to know is "can I make a business decision based on this information?" From what I've heard I believe the answer is yes. We can agree to disagree on this one.
www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/010707_hddvd_ces_2007.pdf
zombieflanders @ Jan 18th 2007 4:26PM
Reread your press releases. Nobody but Onkyo said they would have anything this year, and even they just said they had "plans to release". Meridian didn't even offer anything other than a promise to support HD DVD hardware. None of them had any price, specs, date, or anything at all.
And really, why would I trust the "600 titles in '07!1!!1eleven!!" crowd, when they fell well short of the "more than 200" they crowed about last year, and their biggest exclusive studio didn't even bother to announce items from their flier?
hmurchison @ Jan 18th 2007 4:06PM
Notice that the Blu-rays fans are hyper sensitive about quality. I guess when you've been behind since launch and felt the fire it could leave one a bit shell shocked.
Truth is both formats do look great now. Crank is an excellent quality film from what i've heard on par with the best that HD DVD has to offer. However quality isn't what's going to win the war. It's either price or content. Can Toshiba deliver a price that is irresistable or can the BDA deliver content that wins it all? That's what 2007 is going to decide.
Microsoft and Broadcom are teaming together to create a Reference platform based on Win CE 6.0 and the Broadcom BCM7440 System on Chip LSI. This should enable additional vendors to rapidly create and sell players. The goal is to sell a min of 1.8 million HD DVD players on up to 2.5 million. If HD DVD does that then it's easy to see how they can bring over the content they need to feed millions of players.
Blu-ray needs to keep the conent they have exclusive. The PS3 leads the charge but it's still well behind the 10 million Xbox 360s that all can accept the low cost HD DVD add on. The quality of both formats is fine. That's not the issue. The issue is price vs content. HD DVD will have 600 titles by years end. That's enough for most consumers to buy in if the player price is right. I'm hoping that by Christmas of this year HD DVD players can be had for $299 so that I can buy my parents a unit. I feel like both formats will survive and we'll likely see the media move to Warners Total HD or something else.
hmurchison @ Jan 18th 2007 4:46PM
http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10136
[quote]But the HD DVD camps real trump card, backers say, will be the arrival this year of competitively priced HD DVD players from such companies as Alco, Jiangkui/ED Digital, Lite-On, Shinco, Meridian and Onkyo. [/quote]
You can choose to believe what you want. If you are a "glass half empty" guy then more power to you. Frankly I can see why titles were held back. 25k Blu=ray standalones and 70k or so HD DVD players? That's a drop in the bucket.
hmurchison @ Jan 18th 2007 4:47PM
Meridian's clarifying Press Release.
"International CES 2007, Las Vegas, NV, January 11, 2007Leading British audio/video
manufacturer Meridian (South Hall 1, Booth 20538) is pleased to make the following statement to clarify
the situation regarding reports on its involvement in HD-DVD.
Meridian is a company renowned for state-of-the-art digital audio and video technology, and we are
delighted to be working with Microsoft on the development of high-end players. Meridian has for some
time been deeply involved in some of the core audio technology in HD DVD and at CES 2007 we are
pleased to announce that we have now joined the HD DVD Promotional Group.
Consistent with Meridian's product development approach, where standards of performance,
particularly for audio and video are exceptionally high, product development takes some time, and for
that reason we cannot announce any product-specific details at this time."
"
Joseph R @ Jan 18th 2007 8:19PM
REALITY CHECK - Once the Chinese start making those lower-cost HD-DVD players for worldwide markets, it's REALLY going to be over for Blu-ray. It will be the first stages of early mass production.
HD-DVD also now has the PORN market on their side, not Blu-Ray (5 discs now appear on dvdempire.com's adult site, with more coming - haha).
HD-DVD software is at least 50% cheaper to manufacture than Blu-ray, with no waiting(!) as there are numerous replication plants worldwide, not just those select few controlled by Sony [for Blu-ray], with must higher mastering CO$T!
AND, HD-DVD is region-free baby! Microsoft's Kevin Collins has AGAIN confirmed this recently, so if one of those Fox/Disney/Sony/LG movies you like won't appear in the USA anytime soon, well you can look to pay a small increase and order the SAME movie (with the English soundtrack etc) from any of the foreign HD-DVD markets (Japan/UK/Germany/France etc), where the rights are controlled by companies supporting HD-DVD - take that Sony!
Here's just one excellent import site (based in the USA)...
http://xploitedcinema.com/catalog/hd-dvds-c-35.html
Oh year, it's all coming to together for HD-DVD in 2007, and now even Microsoft is hinting that they may produce a new stand-alone HD-DVD player [2nd, after XBox360 add-on].
Finally, it's too bad that Dolby TrueHD soundtracks seem to be lacking on many Blu-ray titles, whereas the same movie on HD-DVD includes this lossless track! Another bummer for Blu-ray, where many titles are stuck with just a basic Dolby Digital track, whereas HD-DVD as "Dolby Digital PLUS" and often Dolby TrueHD!
Talkstr8t @ Jan 19th 2007 10:50AM
Joseph said:
> Finally, it's too bad that Dolby TrueHD soundtracks
> seem to be lacking on many Blu-ray titles, whereas
> the same movie on HD-DVD includes this lossless track!
Roughly 15 HD DVD movies have TrueHD support (lossless audio). Virtually every Sony and Disney release has lossless PCM (lossless audio), and may Fox titles have DTS-HD MA (lossless audio). Lossless is lossless; a majority of Blu-ray movies have lossless, while less than 10% of HD DVD do.
Zed @ Jan 18th 2007 9:01PM
@hmurchison and @Joseph R
You guy's are making valid points. But there will be no winner. Both formats will exsist becasue both cost relativley the same to produce, especally when you look at the triple layer HD/DVD's which hmurchison, your article states is the HD movie camps "response" the blu-ray's movies that are out now. With porn backing HD it will survive just because of that, but with the studio support blu-ray will also suceed, don't forget guys there are 2 million and counting PS3+ the 25k+ stand alones already out there, which is almost what the HD camp wants to have by year end. As far as HD in Asia. There are already more PS3's in Japan than 360's the majority of Asia will support BD, so if you want to spend lots of money shipping excusive BD from china here on HD go for it man, but we will get two for one movies here for the price that yours end up costing with shipping. HD/DVD but it's only because of porn, and the fact that there are people out there that hate sony and blu-ray so much that they will spend whatever they have to to get HD/DVD's. Happy spending boys!
Zed @ Jan 18th 2007 9:09PM
HD/DVD but it's only because of porn, and the fact that there are people out there that hate sony and blu-ray so much that they will spend whatever they have to to get HD/DVD's. Happy spending boys!
Sorry what it was supposed to say is
HD/DVD will survive but it's only because of porn, and the fact that there are people out there that hate sony and blu-ray so much that they will spend whatever they have to to get HD/DVD's. Happy spending boys!
Matteo @ Jan 18th 2007 9:18PM
Here's a reality check.... Logically the next step for DVD is HD-DVD. But what happens after that? Oh wait a minute... yes, you might have guessed it, It's Blue-Ray. With more than 170 leading consumer electronic, computing manufacturers and content providers there's no way in the long run that HD-DVD will survive.
Picture quality on both units to most people are exactly the same. So we can rule that out of the equation. (Even though that no television truely displays 1080i, its either 720p or 1080p (that native resolution of the television) so if you have a 1080p set your signal is getting up converted to 1080p, but i'm going to assume that you already knew that)
What comes down to it and what made DVD sales grow dramatically was the ability to have surround sound. And its only a matter of time when content providers (for example George Lucas) will take advantage of Blue-Ray's high capacity storage disks.
And really... does product placement inside a Bestbuy really going to change customers minds? I don't think so. HD-DVD did so poorly for Bestbuy before christmas that Bestbuy has decided to push blue-ray to its end caps. Even though Toshiba pays for all of its end caps to try to get customer to buy HD-DVD.
Matteo @ Jan 18th 2007 9:18PM
Here's a reality check.... Logically the next step for DVD is HD-DVD. But what happens after that? Oh wait a minute... yes, you might have guessed it, It's Blue-Ray. With more than 170 leading consumer electronic, computing manufacturers and content providers there's no way in the long run that HD-DVD will survive.
Picture quality on both units to most people are exactly the same. So we can rule that out of the equation. (Even though that no television truely displays 1080i, its either 720p or 1080p (that native resolution of the television) so if you have a 1080p set your signal is getting up converted to 1080p, but i'm going to assume that you already knew that)
What comes down to it and what made DVD sales grow dramatically was the ability to have surround sound. And its only a matter of time when content providers (for example George Lucas) will take advantage of Blue-Ray's high capacity storage disks.
And really... does product placement inside a Bestbuy really going to change customers minds? I don't think so. HD-DVD did so poorly for Bestbuy before christmas that Bestbuy has decided to push blue-ray to its end caps. Even though Toshiba pays for all of its end caps to try to get customer to buy HD-DVD.
anonymous coward @ Jan 18th 2007 9:35PM
"The numbers are becoming more clear. Without the PS3 and a studio advantage Blu-ray would be dead."
So what you're saying is that if Blu-Ray wasn't more successful than HD-DVD, it would be less successful than HD-DVD?
Thanks, Captain Obvious. Where would we be without you.
Zed @ Jan 18th 2007 10:19PM
Nice one man that's exactly it!!!
hmurchison @ Jan 18th 2007 10:47PM
Matteo you are well versed in regurgitating the PR material from the BDA. If PQ is normalized then consumers will decide based on price (HD DVD) or content (Blu-ray). I don't see where you've said anything I haven't already covered. Watch it or I'll start charging you licensing fees for my ideas.
Zed the Porn industry moving to HD DVD just happened this year. They company that has been instrumental in HD DVDs growth is Microsoft IMO.
Anonymous idiot not I didn't say that.. YOU did. I'll expand. Blu-ray was never submitted to the DVD Forum for to be chosen as DVD sucessor. It wasn't ready. No matter Sony grabbed some friends and decided to do an end around. They got the studio support by promising FOX to add extra BD+ DRM. They wooed Paramount and Warner with hype dreams of 4 million PS3 shipped in 2006.
No look at their execution. They launched late with Single Layer discs. No interactivity on the discs and no support for nextgen audio codecs. Most players don't have networking other than the PS3 and Pioneer unit. In short Sony's selling wolf tickets to keep studos exclusive and thus their survival.
So much for it being a superior format. The've used up 5 of their 9 lives.
Zed @ Jan 18th 2007 11:25PM
Where is this growth all you keep talking about is potential growth. The PS3 already has 2 million units, there will be another 6 at least by this the end of this year, add another "potential" 200,000 stand alones your at 6.2 to 6.3 million blu-ray players in homes by the end of '07. Even if HD-DVD's hit their mark of 2.5 million by year's end(including HD-DVD 360 add on's) there will be 3x as many blu-ray players out there. Explain how you whole theory about there will be more HD-DVD players out there holds water?
I understand the porn thing was this year, and like it was stated best buy was so dissapointed by there HD-DVD sales they shelved them. What I'm saying is it's coming down to if you have an HD-DVD player your a perv. Every movie is avaiable on blu-ray, and the only ones that might not have been aren't being released this year (universal). Face it guy, Toshiba dosen't even care if HD-DVD fails, they helped make the cell processor. HD-DVD was a gimik right from the start. How many Dell XPS system are going to be out there by the end of this year with a blu-ray in them? Or did you forget that Dell was backing blu-ray?
Talkstr8t @ Jan 19th 2007 10:57AM
hmurchison, as usual you're posting crap. The DVD Forum is for DVD. Is the DVD format proprietary because it wasn't standardized in the same place as CD was? Of course not. The fact remains that every major CE vendor except Toshiba backed Blu-ray. Of course, Toshiba stood to gain the most by tying the new format to DVD due to their patent position, so of course they have desperately tried to maintain their position in spite of it greatly limiting the next format's capability.
And in spite of your claims regarding Blu-ray launch capabilities, the fact remains today that BD50 is plentiful and most disc releases feature lossless audio. If Blu-ray has used up 5 of 9 lives, HD DVD has used up 8.5 of their 9.
Matteo @ Jan 18th 2007 11:14PM
Hmurchison, Sorry that i don't read all your posts but i'm relatively new to the site. Your saying that consumers are going to decide based on price (HD-DVD) vs. content (blu-ray). I've just done some research and the cost for HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray movies are relatively the same. For example, according to the BestBuy Canada website the following movie sells for the following
Superman Returns HD-DVD $34.99
Superman Returns Blu-Ray $29.99
In the long run, the format discs should balance out to be the same. Some might sell for more, other will sell for less. Now, it basically comes down to hardware.
Toshiba HD-2A $599.99
Samsung BD-P1000 $1299.99
Playstation 3 $659.99
Here, we see the price difference but as some of us are aware, Toshiba is selling there player at a loss and the same can be said for the PS3. For majority of individuals the stand alone player blu-ray is too expensive but i have a source inside of Sony and i'm hearing that Sony next two models of blu-ray players (CES show) will sell for sub $1000. Most likely $600 and $800. Now why not buy a PS3 play games, surf the web, watch HD movies, etc.
I don't really think HD DVD has a chance in the long but i cannot see a clear cut winner for a few years
farshad @ Jan 18th 2007 11:51PM
A LITTLE OFF SUBJECT BUT HERE GOES
it is true that hd-dvd is CURRENTLY better than blu-ray but only for one reason rigt now,
hd-dvd uses vc-1 which simply is better than mpeg-2( right now )
BUT, blu-ray will be shipping mpeg4 movies soon, the first movie being casino royale
if you want to see the diff between vc-1 and mpeg4, it is the diff between using quicktime to watch videos versus windows media player.
notice that quicktime movies of the same clip and resolution actually take more space. this is why it is neccesary for blu-ray to be 50GB( most blu-ray movies right now are single layer, thus they use the mpeg2 because it takes less space.)
unfortuntly for hd-dvd, they are starting to ALREADY max out on capacity. the hd-dvd title KING-KONG was limited to 30gb, and thus they had to take out high quality audio to sacrifice space usage.
personally, i think that blu-ray has much better future value than hd-dvd.
Talkstr8t @ Jan 19th 2007 11:01AM
Farshad, there have been many MPEG-4/AVC releases on Blu-ray, from Fox, Disney, and Lionsgate. Casino Royale will be Sony's first AVC title, but far from Blu-ray's first.
Also, recent MPEG2 releases have been every bit as good as VC-1. Paramount released several movies on VC-1 for HD DVD and on MPEG2 for Blu-ray (i.e. MI:3) and the reviews of PQ have been identical.
hmurchison @ Jan 19th 2007 1:15AM
Matteo- What gave you idea that the Toshiba HD-A2 is being sold at a loss? No one has done a BoM breakdown. It was the A1 that was rumored to be selling below cost. It had analog outs and RS232 ports in addition to an aluminum case over the A2.
Toshiba likely won't be the HD DVD price leader by Summer. My guess is that HD DVD should hit $299 by Xmas of this year. We'll see but there's a reason why they are shooting for 1.8-2.5 million sales this year which no studio is going to look past.
Zed- 2 million "shipped" not sold.
http://spong.com/article/11514/PS3+Claims+2+Million+Target?cb=340
You assume that 6 million PS3 players means that there are 6 million movie watchers. That's false. If there are 500k PS3 in North America right now then things look rather dire because HD DVDs 175k players are keeping up with movies sales. So it looks like if this ratio holds it'll only take 2 million HD DVD players to equal the movie purchasing power of 6 million PS3. Do you disagree?
Zed you can't beat me in a debate by tossing out weak auxilliary stuff like Cell or saying that "Toshiba doesn't care" Dell backs Blu-ray but guess who sells more PCs and overtook Dell in 2006. HP and they support both formats. Another weak point is stating that most movies are available on Blu-ray. Remember HD DVD will have cheaper players. In a head to head for titles that available on both format HD DVD wins because players can be bought for $399 with free movies.
ed @ Jan 20th 2007 12:57AM
I have to agree with ZED. Although some of you might be right that not all 6 million PS3 owners are going to use it for Blu-Ray movies, I read in another article a statistic that 80% of PS3 owners are aware of Blu-Ray disc and are going to buy them to use on their PS3. With the lack of games out for it right now, retailers are just making future promises of great games, but for the meantime.... have a blu-ray disc player.
So my understanding is that although the U.S. is slow to catch up with the technology trends, I think the winner wont be decided here for the future, but rather it will be decided in Japan (If you didn't know, blu-ray has been released a whole year ahead I believe). Even if Blu-Ray were to lose lets say initially in the U.S. (which it probably wont with only Universal backing the movies and a bunch of no name companies,TOSHIBA, and MICROSOFT), blu ray will be here to stay. A lot of people are really gun shy, and because people aren't going out and buying one or the other format, they're probably both here to stay. (Again this is coming from someone who owns both).
hmurchison @ Jan 19th 2007 1:32AM
farshad
Let me save you from some grief. There are plenty of movies that are already using AVC and using VC1 on Blu-ray. MPEG2 isn't an excuse as the Covenant from Blu-ray is stellar quality. Forget the codec argument you will only get bottled up.
"unfortuntly for hd-dvd, they are starting to ALREADY max out on capacity. the hd-dvd title KING-KONG was limited to 30gb, and thus they had to take out high quality audio to sacrifice space usage."
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/kingkong2005.html
5 Star video
4.5 Star audio.
For a 3 hour movie that's pretty damn solid. Remember encoding tools get better where movies require less bitrate (space) to obtain the same quality. The typical feature length film is 2 hours so I'm thinking maxing out is the least of our worries IMO.
farshad @ Jan 19th 2007 4:05AM
i guess we will see how quality compares with the release of Casino Royale.
by the way, this is from the link you gave me
"but no Dolby True HD or DTS-HD option is provided."
" but it is hard not to be crestfallen that 'Kong' doesn't get the best sound "
may have gotten a 4.5 for what it DOES offer, but it doesnt offer as much as it could.
we both know that mpeg4 has much better quality than mpeg2, it just takes up more space, which is something blu-ray has to offer with only 2 layers(king kong was alrdy a 2 layer movie at 30gb)
hmurchison @ Jan 19th 2007 2:57AM
Assuming that TrueHD is always better than DD+ is a lot like assuming Costco has the best pricing on everything.
I'm only concerned that the audio be transparent to the Master or as close as possible. I've read that for some movies a DD+ encode on a 24bit soundtrack sounds damn close to transparent.
If the audio sounds good..the hell with the specs.
Dave @ Jan 19th 2007 3:16AM
Have a look here:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5064
Blu-ray outsells hd dvd 4:1!
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5064
marvin @ Jan 19th 2007 4:40AM
@ Farshad
Mpeg-4 (AVC) does not take more space than Mpeg-2, it needs much less for comparable quality. Like Microsoft's VC-1 it is a newer and much more efficient codec than the decade-old mpeg-2 that was is on DVDs. Sony and others on the Blu-ray camp claim that the newer codecs cannot match the quality of Mpeg-2, which is why we need the extra capacity of Blu-Ray.
Now while there have been some truly amazing mpeg-2 transfers recently on Dual Layer BDs, the quality is not really better than what VC-1 or AVC has to offer. So mpeg-2 is probably on its way out, and I expect the Blu-ray exclusive studios to move fully to AVC within 2007.
The BD's extra capacity can find much better use than wasting it on mpeg-2. Uncompressed LPCM sound is just amazing (and probably out of the question for HD-DVD), some more extras would be nice too.
hmurchison @ Jan 19th 2007 4:17AM
Dave those links don't show a ratio. It shows that according to some retail magazine Blu-ray has outsold HD DVD 4 weeks straight. My guess is that this is best buy. Not a surprise.
marvin @ Jan 19th 2007 4:44AM
I meant "mpeg-2 codec that is used on DVDs", sorry for that. Engadget really needs to add an "edit" option for us lousy typers.
Overseer @ Jan 19th 2007 5:09AM
This is almost as entertaining as reading the Smackdown threads at highdefdigest.com. :D
Larry @ Jan 19th 2007 9:09AM
I agree with Ben's article I want to see the numbers. There has to be a group like the NPD for videogames that produces a report for HD-Dvds/Blu-Ray. The numbers are available for dvds why not for the next gen dvd formats? Could both groups be hiding the fact that neither format is selling all that well?
Michael @ Jan 19th 2007 4:51PM
I don't really see this comment come up...Sony is producing a ton of PS3s ... This is going to have one major impact on the industry even if nobody buys movies: they will drive down the costs of Blu-ray player production. This will enable the price of standalone players to drop in price FAR more rapidly than HD-DVD. Everyone here has probably heard of economies of scale. In fact, we might even see standalone players below $500 in the next 12-18 months. Sure, HD-DVD players are there now ... but with falling prices (I think Sony's players already came down $100), PS3 adoption worldwide (boost coming from actual game launches and Europe), tepid HD-DVD addon sales for the 360 (I say tepid because they don't look to be accelerating), and movie support ... at the end of the year, the price premium over HD-DVD won't be that bad. Plus, since all PS3 games and Blu-Ray movies are made in the same kind of production lines, we should see cost synergies there in the same manner. I think the format has potential despite it's early high-costs. If anything, the requirement of the BD-ROM in the PS3 will provide the impetus needed to bring a superior product to market in an accelerated manner than would have otherwise been possible given the cheaper, less revolutionary alternative.
Ed @ Jan 19th 2007 6:19PM
Die bluray die!!!!
Zed @ Jan 19th 2007 7:55PM
It's funny how there are about 15 differnet people on here supporting blu-ray and 3 or 4 that support HD-DVD. Right there if we all bought one movie to the format we support there would be 15 blu-ray's to 4 HD-DVD's sold. The whole argument about 2 million shipped not sold is the thread that your hanging on. Okay well if no one that owns a PS3 is buying blu-ray's why are they now; I mean as of the last month and a half that blu-ray has really been avaiable. Completely outselling HD-DVD's. As far as debating on weather or not Toshiba cares if HD succeds or not. There is no debate, they helped make the cell processor, so they win both ways. hmurchison you are one of the only people on here that is hanging onto this notion that HD will suceed over BD. So unless you are going to make universal release some exclusvie HD-DVD's: yes every movie will be on blu-ray(subtract the porn that seems to be sooo important to you HD-DVD guy's), and yes BD will be sucessfull.
janus @ Jan 19th 2007 7:56PM
I've read this stuff and to say the least I'm unimpressed. Who writes this stuff? Let me clarify.
1. BD and HDDVD use VC-1
2. Toshiba is the only certified manufacturer of HDDVD. And if you throw that RCA sh*t out at me I'm gonna tell youn that its a Toshiba model with a RCA nameplate.
3. Porn isn't exclusive to HDDVD. It just happens to cost more to produce on BD. Now porn is relatively cheap to make anyhow but they dont want to pay more to produce but they'll have to by the sheer number of units out there. Simply stated it takes money to make money.
4. Someone was right about HDDVD and Best Buy. Go look for yourself. Its not only the case of this major retailer but most retailers. Position in a store matters. Especially if its the first or last thing you see when entering or leaving a store. The in your face approach works. Things placed way in the back are bargain basement throwbacks or at least that is the perception that is created.
5. They're aren't really too many manufacturers making HDDVD product. Take a look and you'll see what I mean. And dont throw that Microsoft sh*t at me cause to tell you the truth it just isn't in play given the number of units for projected sales worldwide. Sales in Japan are dismal and they're questioning strategy in China? The fact of the matter is even if you look at it as forcing you to choose a mdeia by hardware integration or because it is genuinely better doesn't really matter. BD is going to win and the strategy seems to have worked.
6. Don't be mad about how you spend you're money. If you have a PS3 you probably made a good choice and can use the unit to play BD movies and games and if not sell it and the same goes for HDDVD, right?
7. MPGE-4 v. VC-1 who cares? They're both good. 1080p v 1080i well now there a real difference.
8. Feature for feature though PS3 whoops on the 360 except for online play. And please don't tell me about GOW played it and wasn't all that impressed even with General Raam. Level 5 was short. Name another for Viva Pinata...COD...I'm not that impressed...yet.
9. Honestly now...would you rather play a game on a Zune, PSP, or Ipod/Iphone?
10. Oh yeah all this talk and I didn't once mention the "N" factor. Well thats because it is what it is...a "N" factor. "N" for novelty. The graphics and gameplay will give within 1-2 years worth of play if that. I've played it and haven't played it since cause it's only cool playing it when you have friends over and most of them are girls cause you want to see them have fun playing a video game instead of getting mad at you. Plus its a lot of fun to watch a girl play just about any game. Here's a hint...if you have a Wii then get your girl to play bowling a lot. You'll see what I mean.
These are just some notes from one very observant cat.
Peace
Zed @ Jan 19th 2007 8:27PM
16!!!
Ed @ Jan 20th 2007 10:37AM
Funny how the BD group doesn't release #'s.
Begbie @ Jan 20th 2007 9:42PM
I believe that whoever gets a sub $200 player to Walmart will win.
At one point Sony was the leader in sales of DVD players until Walmart sold Cyberhomes for around $40. Even a woman died in a melee for a cheap player at Walmart. If Toshiba can get China to produce cheap no name players then they have a really good chance to win. Even BR studios will be forced to switch to accommodate the masses.
Ron @ Jan 20th 2007 10:24PM
Weren't you reading the thread. IF Toshiba get's to china and makes..... BD are already fairly big in asia where HD-dvd just like here now, is struggling.
When 2 of the 3 companies that were going to exclusivly market HD-DVD's have started producing both and the last(universal) has no HD-DVD releases slated for THIS YEAR, it's seems unlikly that to feed the masses you will need HD-DVD players. It's even more unlikley that you will see companies like Disney and Sony swich, especialy considering that at best for you HD-DVD people both formats will exsist this time around due to lost cost of production. So if you ever want to watch a Disney, FOX, or a Sony movie in Hi DEF you will need a BD player. But hey mabye you don't like Star Wars, Spiderman, The Pirates of the Carribean, Cars, ect...
Begbie @ Jan 21st 2007 3:30AM
When Cletus and Bobbi-Sue goes into a Walmart and sees a HD-DVD player for $100 and a BR player for $600, which player do you think they will buy? The clerk will if you want to see a Disney movie you will have to buy the $600 player. Cletus will say "I sure ain't gonna pay $600 so you tell them folks at Disney to make the disk for the $100 one." Studios have no vested interest in which format will win as long as they can make a sale. If the masses decides to skip the optical discs and adopt the 300gb hologram disc, the studios will make movies for that instead.
Why are the PS3s collecting dust on the shelf and the Wii is sold out every where? If both systems are priced the same, who do you think would win?
Ron @ Jan 21st 2007 11:59AM
$100 dollar HD-DVD and a $600 BLu-ray. First off that isn't happening and won't be for a while(the HD camp hopes to have prices for their players at $399 by years end) the cheapest that you can get an HD-DVD player for right now is $599(It's been out for almost a year). $899 for a Blu-ray(out for a little over 2 months) Looks like the prices are dropping on both. Switching to HDV, there aren't even HDV disks in production let alone more than a rumor that they exist yet. In 10 years mabye we will have HDV players. If you want to wait to get HDV go for it. The point with Asia adopting BD is that you are going to see $100 blu-ray's in Wal-mart before you know it. So when your mom and dad(Cletus and Bobbi-Sue) go in to buy their HI DEF player at walmart there won't be a difference; if there are still HD-DVD players avaiable when blu-rays are $100 a pop. If HD-dvd was going to be a bigger, better, and in the end be more affordable format. I doubt that you would see HD-DVD exclusive companies jumping ship and producing both. If fact it would be the opposite. Once universal releases their first blu-ray everyone will know what the next gen will be.
"Why are the PS3s collecting dust on the shelf and the Wii is sold out every where? If both systems are priced the same, who do you think would win?"
Your telling us that you think if the PS3 was priced at $299 that it woulnd't sink the Wii and the 360. What r u eight? That dosen't make any senseat all. When ppl bash the PS3, the thing they bitch about the most is the price, and you think that if it was $299 right now, you wouldn't want one. Okay. Well how about you go with your parents to walmart and grab me one of those $100 HD-DVD players genius.
Ben Hobbs @ Jan 21st 2007 1:27PM
Janus
"7. MPGE-4 v. VC-1 who cares? They're both good. 1080p v 1080i well now there a real difference."
I'm hoping this part of your post was a joke, or just another person fooled by sucker marketing, I've yet to be able to tell the difference EVER between 1080i and 1080p and I deal with this stuff everyday - Heck if its a good movie I have trouble distinguishing 720p and 1080p, especially under 70" or so.
In terms of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sales, they are just about even, with HD-DVD ahead by a pinch. What seems to be happening here is that whilst HD-DVD owners are simply enjoying watching their movies, Sony fanboys are instead arguing about how good Blu-Ray might be at a later date in the future. The most vocal part of the community isn't always spread evenly, more its a case of those who figure they have something to defend who shout the loudest.
Begbie @ Jan 21st 2007 8:03PM
"Your telling us that you think if the PS3 was priced at $299 that it woulnd't sink the Wii and the 360. What r u eight? That dosen't make any senseat all. When ppl bash the PS3, the thing they bitch about the most is the price, and you think that if it was $299 right now, you wouldn't want one. Okay. Well how about you go with your parents to walmart and grab me one of those $100 HD-DVD players genius."
My point was if both console was priced the same, PS3 would annihilate everyone.
People do care about price, that's why PS3s are sitting on the shelf and the Wiis are not. Try reading between the lines.
And outside of Japan, no one cares about hi-def discs. Chinese companies don't want to paid any royalties so that's why they developed their own EVD or FVD or whatever it's called. If Toshiba relinquishes that royalty, they could get China to flood the market with cheap HD-DVD players.
Or mostly likely hi-def discs won't catch on in China, Taiwan, SE Asia, etc because right now it is possible to buy a legit dvd for a few dollars and a bootleg for 50 cents. No one will pay $30 for a movie or $50 for a game. That's why MS and Sony are not releasing their consoles in China.
The next gen discs will probably die out like DVD-audio and SACD. Upconverting players like Oppo and Helios can do such a good job with existing dvds that the quality isn't significant enough between the current disc and new gen discs for the masses to change.
tranzparentl @ Jan 24th 2007 7:52AM
Begbie: Get your facts straight. Xbox is launching in China within a few months. Thats one more teriroty where you won't even have a choice if you wanted it.
Jon @ Jan 24th 2007 11:51PM
It is really disheartening to see all these people fall under the spell of marketing. Remember when Sony said Betamax is the way to go, remember when sony said betacam was the best, remember when Sony said MMCD was the best, remember when Sony said ATRAC was the best, remember when Sony said MiniDisc was the best, remember when Sony said SDDS was the best, remember when Sony said SACD was the best, remember when Sony said UMD was the best, remember when Sony said DVD+(R/RW) are the best? History repeats itself. HDDVD has been in development since 15 minutes after DVDs came out and it shows. Superb picture quality in Gen. 1 devices, out of the box support for lossless/enhanced audio, half the price to sell, nearly half the cost to manufacture, better audio and video codecs IN GEN 1 PLAYERS. What Sony fails to realize is that in order to develop and manufacture BD media, an entire new facility needs to be erected, while HDDVD provides a much cheaper alternative. The whole Samsung BDP1000 really tarnished the launch, with undefeatable noise reduction, less than stellar transfers, and the whole 1080i disc read thing. I frequent a Best Buy near my house and the Sony BD player is always locked up. And the whole thing about 1080p vs. 1080i is moot on screens under 70 inches, unless you want to smell your pixels. I spent a lot of time researching both players and I opted for the HD-A1, and I am floored constantly by the picture and sound quality. I don't see a 500 dollar difference for a 1080p player, and that goes for the XA2 as well. Just my humble opinion.