Why Blu-ray will win

[My explanation after the jump]
Price
No doubt some will buy into HD DVD because it's cheaper, but most will see it as a generic version. Those consumer who go to Best Buy and buy the cheapest TV, the cheapest AV receiver will flock to HD DVD. Those who have the money to buy the $6000 rear projection will buy Blu-ray. The sales person will help them make that purchase, because unlike HD DVD there is enough margin in the product to motivate retailers to sell the item. Sure they will put HD DVD on the front of weekly ad with the rest of the inexpensive products, but when you get in the store they will be well versed in the merits of Blu-ray.
Perception
Blu-ray will be perceived as better because it costs more, we all know this. I mean seriously is a Rolex really worth all that money? Is the Sony XBR really that much better than the non-XBR? People perceive expensive item as being better and if they compare their favorite brand player to the Toshiba there is no way that they would choose HD DVD based on the way the player looks. It looks generic and I know it's what is inside that counts, but we know how that goes. People will see HD DVD as an incremental inexpensive alternative to the next generation HD movie format. People will recognize that all their favorite CE companies and favorite movies are available on Blu-ray and see the value, after all content is king.
Head Start
HD DVD was out 2 months before Blu-ray, what day was Beta released? How about VHS? Anyone? Of course, no one knows and no one cares, what people care about is the here and now. Part of the reason HD DVD has the lead now and was able to come to market sooner was the lack of support. It is much easier to quality control one player and three studios than eight players and approximately seven studios. Sure, HD DVD has the lead now, but who really believes they can keep it never the less stop Blu-ray once all the companies pledging support actually fulfill that promise. More on promises later.
Technology
A dual layer Blu-ray has more capacity that HD DVD and three layer HD DVDs are not even in the spec. Blu-ray might be behind HD DVD today because of their reluctance to use more advanced CODECs, but in the long run they will support all the same CODECs and the extra space and throughput is going to make the difference. By the time Disney's first titles are released or Warner's second wave, VC1 vs MPEG2 will be a non-issue. HD DVD is currently the best that it can get, it is maxing out it's capacity as well as it 30Mbs throughput, this is why there are no 1.85:1 movies with TureHD and enhanced features(IME). Even if Blu-ray were to fail as a packaged media format (anything can happen), it would live on as a data storage format. In the world of data storage there is never enough and this simply makes Blu-ray better.
Conclusion
HD DVD Fanboys everywhere are emailing me death threats and yelling blasphemy because I choose to ignore the fact that HD DVD is better TODAY and that every picture quality comparison has been in HD DVD favors, or that most Blu-ray titles don't get a good review. We all like to think that everyone is like us, we like to think that everyone will choose picture or sound quality above all else, but it just isn't true. To a certain degree picture and sound quality are important to everyone, but some can't tell the difference between HBO HD and DVDs and they sure won't be able to see the difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray. All the Blu-ray movies I have seen look better than HBO HD. No, I haven't watched every single Blu-ray title and no, I am not going to go rent that one movie that everyone knows looks bad. Blu-ray movies look great, do they look as good as they could? Maybe not, will they get better? Sure, and you know what, his war isn't going to be won in the first three or even six months. At this point it is all speculation and only time will tell, but I for one am putting my money on Blu-ray.
Never say never
As much as I am convinced that Blu-ray will win, much of this is based on promises. Promises made by the BDA (notice I don't say Sony) and promises made by all the supporting companies. Although it's early to start calling them out, if Blu-ray doesn't ever release 50GB discs or if the CE companies and studios switch sides we have a whole new ball game. Of course this is what every HD DVD fanboy is predicting, at this point it is all a dream that the studios will switch because HD DVD out sells Blu-ray. In the meantime go over to Amazon and write a bad review of the BD-P1000 or join the rest of 'em bashing Blu-ray at the AVSForum and convince yourself that you can make a difference. I believe Blu-ray can and will deliver the ultimate HD picture and sound quality and don't care if HD DVD is a little better right now.







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
MikeS @ Aug 16th 2006 10:49AM
Ben and Matt have both made cases for each format and respect you both. I don't have a winner picked except that if I had to choose TODAY, it would be HD-DVD based on price and quality. When I actually can afford to buy into an HD optical disc format is when a player is $200 and it is the dominant format. Maybe it will be blu-ray, maybe HD-DVD. Until then, I will watch closely at how each format grows.
ScootOnDown @ Aug 16th 2006 10:50AM
Amen Brother!
Frankie Majowich @ Aug 16th 2006 10:59AM
Why do people have a VCR or a DVD player? To watch movies. The format that releases the most movies that most people want to watch will win.
cckrobinson @ Aug 16th 2006 11:10AM
Well said. Ben's quote below is the key to the whole thing:
"if Blu-ray doesn't ever release 50GB discs or if the CE companies and studios switch sides we have a whole new ball game."
The only hope that HD-DVD has is for the studios to jump ship, and that won't happen unless more vendors sign on to make players. At this point I'd give HD-DVD a 25% chance of winning, and a 50% chance of survival. It seems more plausible that Universal would adopt Blu-ray before Sony pictures would start putting out flicks on HD-DVD.
Tube @ Aug 16th 2006 11:10AM
I disagree. I don't see an item less expensive as 'generic' If that were the case, then plasma is generic compared to LCD. AMD chipsets are generic compared to Intel chips. Just because I can afford Blu-Ray doesn't necessarily mean I want Blu-Ray.
Personally, I'm upset that there are TWO competing formats.
I discussed both formats with my family at a recent gathering. Not one had ever heard of Blu-Ray. Nice job Sony. When I mentioned HD DVD, they all immediately recognized it was a better high definition version of DVD.
What I'm looking at between the two formats is quality. Right now HD DVD has the better quality. It also has the movies which I find more interesting. And the price, while expensive, is still far more affordable.
I have to say I'm leaning towards HD DVD
Daniel Clausen @ Aug 16th 2006 11:14AM
The problem with these predictions are they assume that thier has to be a looser in this battle. Thier is a big difference between this format war and previous ones, the formats are very, very similar. The disc are the same physical size and are both based on blue laser technology. This means you can easily have a player that plays both. The end result will be both formats living side by side. This outcome means everyone wins!
Dave Zatz @ Aug 16th 2006 11:22AM
Both will win... and by that I mean both formats will coexist as DVD-R and DVD+R has played out.
Jason @ Aug 16th 2006 11:34AM
This article is kind of backwards... If the HIGHER price is so important to Blu-Ray and the fact that expensive is better then the format war MUST be won in the first six months. The ONLY people who think MORE EXPENSIVE is better are the early adopters.
PRICE WILL WIN this war and the cheaper the price the better. If HD-DVD can be the first sub $100 player it will easily win this war. The article states itself there there is really no difference in picture quailty and except for the fact that HD-DVD is better now... well they will both look exactly the same down the road... The only way one of these formats will ever win and take the place of DVD is when the format is accessible in price to the masses... HD-DVD has a much better chance of hitting that mark first.
Lets not compare VHS to BETA... how about HDD floppy discs to Zip discs... sure the zip disc was a better tech and could hold alot more space the the "upgraded" floppy but it was overkill for most people to invest in the more expensive drive... the same things goes for this format... the HD-DVD is exactly what it needs to be... big enough to hold these movies in HD with some cool bonus content.
Oh and lets face it... how many people buy a movie just because of its bonus content? I don't think there are very many people that run out to get a movie just so they can watch a director talk about the movie... the bloopers are cool and so are the deleted scenes but the stuff that takes up the real space is just fluff and filler that most people probably never look at anyway...
These are trying times... with parents spending HALF their money on tech gadgets (iPods, laptops, etc..) for their kids and the other HALF on gasoline money is a huge issue in this war... you don't have to through money at something just cause it looks cool when you can get the same thing of the exact same quality for the half the price. $500 bucks is ALOT of money these days and I would imagine that HD-DVD is going to have atleast a 25-35% price advantage throught the next couple of years...
King Ding A Ling @ Aug 16th 2006 11:37AM
Well. But someone has to produce those Blue-Ray Discs with movies on 'em. And here has HD DVD a clear advantage: It is relatively easy to use current DVD machines to produce HD DVD. While you need a completely new production line for Blue Ray. - Now, if I were a content producer, would I want to invest the extra millions and bet on a horse I am not sure is going to win???
Cary Golomb @ Aug 16th 2006 11:38AM
You assume to much. You can ask 100 people outside if they like HD-DVD or Blueray Better and most will give a blank stare.
HD-DVD's advantage is the little "HD" before "DVD" which most people will assume means High Definition Digital Video Disc.
And you can lean on the BDA all you want, but you better believe that if the PS3 falls apart with BD Discs, BD-rom will take a HUGE hit.
So regardless of whatever amount of companies involved with BD-ROM, SONY will make or break it.
Jeff @ Aug 16th 2006 11:41AM
I'd have to agree with Tube.
When I talk to people here at work and ask them, they have no clue what Blu-Ray is but understand what HD-DVD is. It isn't always the best that wins (like Beta). Price and Name unfortunatly have a lot to do with it. I don't care who wins, just don't leave me with a useless brick when that format doesn't win.
scaught @ Aug 16th 2006 11:56AM
I am suprised that the PS3 wasn't even mentioned in the article. Seems to me to be a no brainer that Blu Ray's biggest Ace is that it will be in the PS3. The PS2 wasn't my first DVD player, but it was for many others. I am assuming that the PS3 will be the first Blu Ray player for many people as well.
zombieflanders @ Aug 16th 2006 11:57AM
#6: "I would imagine that HD-DVD is going to have atleast a 25-35% price advantage throught the next couple of years..."
What business model in what fantasy world can keep up that kind of price advantage when you only have one manufacturer who's losing money on every "half-price" model sold, and also manages to make *less* money than one competitor (with 3-5 on the way) even when it sells more players?
Xyzzy @ Aug 16th 2006 11:59AM
#8 - that's the beauty of the HD-DVD player; even if there's never another HD-DVD made, it still plays regular DVDs and upconverts them to make them look a lot better. It's one of the best upconverting DVD players on the market, so it's definately worth the price.
The HD content is just the cherry on top :)
Parris @ Aug 16th 2006 12:08PM
I like your review Ben. Im still not sure Blu-Ray is a 100% slam dunk as you do but that is why it is called an opinion.
Jay C @ Aug 16th 2006 12:09PM
Ok, I enjoy listening to the HDBeat and reading this and other AV sites to keep up with the technology aspect, but I have to ask this of Ben ... you have stated several times that you want dual layer discs right. Well I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but I just read that the BDP-1000 that you bought doesn't support the 50GB discs.
http://www.tgdaily.com/picturegalleries/gallery-20060620-3.html
So does it, or does it not?
Bruzer @ Aug 16th 2006 12:12PM
Well Ben, you obviously wrote this 1 day too early. Sony is now selling Dual Layer Blue Ray disks. This is the first step in getting content to look better and add more options. I think this is what all the manufactures were waiting for before they release their products. They knew they need these disks to do their testing and get it right the first time out the door.
I'm with you, Blue Ray has all the advantages of more support and more studios. Content is King, and those people that don't believe that are just don't get it. By Christmas they'll be the underdog and see what we already know.
David @ Aug 16th 2006 12:21PM
Ben,
Have you actually reviewed any HD-DVD titles?
Bruzer,
Yes, Content is King.... but the Content must look good (in terms of HD) in order to be King.
ScootOnDown @ Aug 16th 2006 12:27PM
#6
I read your post and wanted to respond to your ideas of why you think HD DVD
will be less expensive?
1. Going back to the whole BETA vs. VHS, in fact this is a great analogy! HD DVD
is like BETA, Sony was basically the only company manufacturing hardware for
the format, kind of like Toshiba is now. The format was PERCEIVED to be better,
although with VHS having tons more hardware support, this IS what drove down
the prices of VCR's in the day. Blu-Ray is a very similar model to VHS, they will
have the most hardware manufactures producing equipment which will bring
down the cost of the equipment through competition. I would not be surprised
if we see a stand alone Blu-Ray player by the end of 2006 or 1st quarter 2007
at the same price point or cheaper than HD DVD.
(The PS3 will be $499 - $599, so your right there already)
2. I also think that Blu-Ray will most likely (with the inclusion of the PS3) have
approximately 2 million players in homes by this Christmas, to possibly 50,000
HD DVD players. I think some studios (universal) will definitely start to
reconsider the idea of why am I producing titles for 50K customers when I could
be producing titles for 2M customers. Most studios I believe will also really start
supporting Blu-Ray with tons more content. Because content sold for the
studios = $$$
3. The PS3. Regardless of whether or not you think the system is overpriced or
not is really not the issue. The bottom line is that by all accounts this machine
will sell out when it arrives, and even if only 1/4 of those people are movie
watchers it will add up to significant sales for Blu Ray.
Blu Ray and BDA definitely need to start marketing this product better though,
most people are correct with the whole name issue thing. Most people
recognize DVD and if you throw in HD it's just easier to understand. Blu Ray
needs to come out swinging and just start getting the print, TV, and other
media outlets covered with informative literature regarding their format.
Borat @ Aug 16th 2006 12:29PM
Just wait till Spiderman 3 and Pirates Of The Caribbean come out on Blu-Ray. I think Disney made a somewhat smart choice by delaying the POTC 2 BR disk to next year because players may be cheaper by then and more people would have it.
As much as I would want HD DVD to win, there isn't much support for the format, although for the time being content is good, and TV shows are appearing on it.
Jason @ Aug 16th 2006 12:46PM
#11 - Toshiba has stated in the past they they are not taking a loss on the players... why do you think they are taking some huge loss? The componets in these devices are not some fantastical hard to produce products that will cost a company like Toshiba hundreds of dollars to produce... in pricing breakdowns of the PS3 they only factor in like $250-$300 dollars for the price of the blu-ray drive... so im sure the HD-DVD drive will cost toshiba less... then the other componets are all really cherry PC stuff that has been around for a long time.
#16 Don't assume that the PS3 is going to sell Blu-Ray movies... the PSP hasn't exactly sold UMD's... if the PS3 is the only widely adopted Blu-Ray player ever sold then expect it to be more of a problem for BDA, not a benefit. Also the PS3 is NOT overpriced... it is under priced and will KILL the market for other Blu-Ray players... if the PS3 is going to fly off the shelfs when it is released then who is going to be buying them? HD movie buffs or gamers? How many gamers want to run out and grab this fantastic new game console for $600 bucks and spend all their time watching movies on it? You buy a game console to play games... not movies...
The quickest way to KILL Blu-Ray is to get 2 million players out there and have only 10% of those people buy Blu-Ray movies for them... if the studios start pouring out content on blu-ray disc and it just sits on the shelves it will kill Blu-Ray...
I would bet that the PS3 does sell out the day it launches... and it will probably be like the 360... you wont be able to get one for MONTHS... is that what Blu-Ray needs? To have people waiting around till February next year to buy the "cheapest blu-ray player on the market" because all the hardcore gamers camped out on launch day to get a PS3... they are camping out to get one to play games... not watch movies...
TJ @ Aug 16th 2006 12:47PM
I like HD DVD. I really do. I own the Toshiba, and a fair selection of movies. But I think Blu-ray will win because of content. There's more of it, and more of my favorite movies are on it. So I'll be picking PS3 up as a cheap Blu-ray player until the standalone units come down in price (and they will eventually come down).
I doubt that very many of us would be able to tell the difference between and HD DVD or Blu-ray of a movie without seeing them side by side. I think the PQ is probably about equal (and will be equal once BDA has 50gb discs and MPEG-4 Compression working), so after the initial player purchase, I think what it comes down to for me is which format can I get Star Wars, James Bond, Indiana Jones, Lord of the Rings, and Pirates of the Caribbean on?
Ben Drawbaugh @ Aug 16th 2006 12:48PM
Tube,
To most consumers AMD is generic to Intel, obviously we know better. No one has heard of Blu-ray because they aren't really out yet, ask again when/if all the players and studios get onboard and the PS3 is out. Stop thinking about right NOW, I concede that HD DVD is ahead right now.
Bruzer,
Yes I have reviewed a few HD DVDs, I owned a player for 30 days before I returned it and watched almost all the movies released up until then. They looked great just like the Blu-ray movies I have watched. No I don't pretend to be a videophile, but I do own a Mitsu Diamond(55813) that has been ISF calibrated.
TJ @ Aug 16th 2006 12:49PM
Jay C- 50gb discs are part of the Blu-ray Spec, so by definition it MUST play them.
Now, there's a possibility that they may not work right in it at first, but a firmware upgrade should fix that.
Second Chance @ Aug 16th 2006 12:52PM
I see Blu-Ray's advantage as it has potential. Technically speaking, it has the specifications on paper that are superior to HD DVD-- but we haven't seen them exploited yet. Why they haven't is anyone's guess. Just as an example MPEG2 compression instead of VC1? Why? Why? Why limit yourself to 2 hours of HD content on a single layer disc?
Blu-Ray has potential to sell well if the PS3 sells well. Trouble is, why is everyone automatically assuming the PS3 will sell well? At $500-600, I don't think the PS3 will be flying off the shelves after the early adopters grab one. Who is the target audience? Kids with rich parents? If the PS3 tanks, which is a possibility, then it has the ability to take Blu-Ray down with it.
The other problem I see right now, the early comparisons says that the same movie available to both formats is superior in the HD DVD format. And there's speculation the fault lies in the first Blu-Ray player avialable in the market. Does this mean everyone who bought the first Blu-Ray player are permanently screwed to have inferior movies? I find that totally unacceptable.
I don't believe PS3 is enough to drive Blu-Ray movies, just as the PSP wasn't enought to support UMD. I think that you have movies exclusive to each format is a problem. I think if they ever implement HDCP it's going to be a problem for consumers who don't have the hardware to support it.
It appears the early advantage is HD DVD, which if it builds momentum will be hard to stop.
TJ @ Aug 16th 2006 12:52PM
Jason- I'm camping out to get a PS3 to watch movies!
Games are just icing on the cake for me!
ScootOnDown @ Aug 16th 2006 12:56PM
Ben,
Is there any truth to the Samsung NOT being able to play the 50gig discs?
Jason @ Aug 16th 2006 1:01PM
TJ - Then you are in the minority... IF there are more movie people camping out to buy PS3's then Sony has a HUGE problem... can they afford to SCREW every game developer out there working hard to make games for the PS3 (which has been proven to be harder and more expensive for the developers). Sony may have shoved the PS3 into a spot in the marketplace that will make it fail.
The biggest hype surrounding the PS3 is the Blu-Ray drive... I wonder how happy game developers are about that... they could probably CARE LESS what storage medium there games are on.
If HD-DVD's install base keeps steadily growing with people who JUST BUY MOVIES for the players then they have a very good chance to succeed. I think the HD-DVD drive the for the 360 is a much safer bet for Toshiba... they know that EVERY CUSTOMER who purchases one of those drives (we can call it a player) will be buying movies for it... the PS3 isn't in that boat... 2 million PS3s translates to how many Blu-Ray customers??? who knows...
Ben Drawbaugh @ Aug 16th 2006 1:03PM
ScootOnDown
Of course it does, check out all the features here.
http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/Blu_ray/files/bdp1000_final.pdf
Ben
Jason @ Aug 16th 2006 1:03PM
Second Chance... I believe anyone who uses VC1 has to pay a royalty/fee to Microsoft... maybe that has something to do with the fact that Sony's movies all use MPEG2 (isn't that a format that they get royalties for?)
BSR @ Aug 16th 2006 1:08PM
Has anyone considered the fact that neither will win? That these formats will go the way of DVD Audio and SACD? People are happy with their DVD's and do not need, want or even have asked for a new DVD format. Heck, most people who own HDTV's don't even know if they are watching HD or not http://slashdot.org/articles/05/12/09/0647218.shtml
zombieflanders @ Aug 16th 2006 1:11PM
#20: "Toshiba has stated in the past they they are not taking a loss on the players... why do you think they are taking some huge loss?"
Please provide a link. I've not seen any word from Toshiba on this.
"The quickest way to KILL Blu-Ray is to get 2 million players out there and have only 10% of those people buy Blu-Ray movies for them... if the studios start pouring out content on blu-ray disc and it just sits on the shelves it will kill Blu-Ray..."
I don't think you have a good grasp of the economics here. 10% would be a *great* attach rate for Blu-ray. That's an automatic 200,000 Blu-ray users--just from one player--meeting or exceeding in one fell swoop even Toshiba's expectations on total 2006 HD DVD hardware sales.
zombieflanders @ Aug 16th 2006 1:17PM
#27: First it's bad for Sony because people don't want Blu-ray included in the PS3, now it's bad for Sony because people do want Blu-ray in PS3. Which is it?
In regards to Blu-ray for games, I've read several developers publicly state either problems with a 9GB limit, or praise for the extra space with BD-ROM.
David @ Aug 16th 2006 1:20PM
"I returned it and watched almost all the movies released up until then. They looked great just like the Blu-ray movies I have watched."
If you've read the reviews on Blu-ray, the majority of titles are far from great. In my opinion, the video quality is no where near that of HD-DVD.
What titles did you watch?
Dave @ Aug 16th 2006 1:27PM
Even assuming consumers were to believe that HD-DVD is "inferior" because it costs less, exactly how much do you believe consumers are willing to spend--particularly considering that "some can't tell the difference between HBO HD and DVDs"? You are assuming that consumers are wealthy and ignorant. I will give you the latter. As a matter of fact, I will go on to suggest that they are so ignorant, they will pick the cheaper format that has the letters "D-V-D" in the title. Luckily, that also happens to be the superior format with regard to cost and quality at the moment. And, by the way, when Sony finally does begin releasing dual-layer discs (which, I suspect won't be until after (if ever) they win the format war), they will cost significantly more than they do today.
Ben Drawbaugh @ Aug 16th 2006 1:32PM
David,
HD DVD
Last Samurai
Phantom of the Opera
Serenity
Apollo 13
Doom
Blu-ray
House of Flying daggers
Underworld: Evolution
Hitch
Kiss Kiss Bang Bang
Terminator 2
Rumor Has it
Good Luck and Good night
The Benchwarmers
They all looked better than HBO HD to ME. But then again I never have been one to go and read other peoples reviews of DVDs.
Jason @ Aug 16th 2006 1:33PM
Zombieflanders... its bad and good for both sides but the biggest problem is the Blu-Ray drive will ruin the PS3 for one of the two camps... maybe both... if you have a device that can do 2 things and most people that buy it will really only use it for one of those 2 things... be it watching movies or playing games... you kill the expected market for the other function of the device... if the attach rate for games is bad with the PS3 developers will stop making games for it... the same goes for the moives... if the attach rate for movies is bad people will stop making movies for the PS3 (since that is what all the Blu-Ray fans think that PS3 is... the be all end all of Blu-Ray). The PS3 will cost too much for it fall into this scenario.
Oh and here is your link:
http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/06/30/toshiba-exec-hd-dvd-profitable-xbox-360-to-include-hd-dvd-inte/
KC @ Aug 16th 2006 1:37PM
Ben... stop the SPIN and face the facts.
HD-DVD is “stated” not “perceived” to be the better technology. This is based on overwhelming reviews and comparisons (one's posted on your very own site).
In addition, to say consumers (and your readers) base the quality of technology on price alone is both insulting and ignorant.
Blu-ray may very well win but PLEASE leave your arguments with your "studiomanufacturer support" theory...
Like most fanboys, you are starting to become your own worst enemy and your also doing a injustice to your (excellent) site.
MikeS @ Aug 16th 2006 1:53PM
No Flames here-
I think the blu-ray folks should have named thier product Blu-DVD or bluray-DVD. Ya gotta have the letters "DVD" in the title for that name recognition on the street.
HD-DVD is such a great product name regardless of the comparison with blu-ray.
I think the CE manufucturers, studios and production plants should have put the patent and licence fees aside to choose ONE format that suits the consumer.
The Jeremy @ Aug 16th 2006 1:53PM
The quickest way to kill HD-DVD is for Sony and the rest of the BDA to officially adopt the H.264 MPEG4 AVC as the codec of choice for all Blu-Ray content and ban content shipping with the MPEG2 or VC-1 codecs. H.264 is better than VC-1 (which is in itself better than MPEG2 but unfortunately is a Microsoft technology), and while the HD-DVD platform is capable of supporting H.264 and it is an official codec, Microsoft will retract their support for the platform if the studios start shipping titles in anything but VC-1. As price becomes a cut-throat competitive factor right before Christmas, I fully expect to see H.264 as being dropped from the HD-DVD players.
Its a real shame that Sony has not influenced the BDA to move to H.264 from the very start. Of course, I can understand Sony's reluctance currently. First, they have no product on the market. Sony does not want to go full-tilt until the PS3 and their own Blu-Ray stand-alone players are shipping. Second, until the Sigma Designs chips (as well as the Cell) start being bundled into the hardware, H.264 will be too much strain on those Broadcomm chips that are shipping in both the Samsung Blu-Ray player AND the Toshiba HD-DVD players. These are the two factors that are giving HD-DVD a leg up currently when in fact it should already have been buried by Blu-Ray had their camp been firing on all 8 cylinders from the start.
It would also help if Sony, Dell, and Apple were all shipping their high-end systems with BD-R drives standard. Granted, even the external Sony BD-Rs that are shipping currently won't play back commercial Blu-Ray titles, unfortunately.
MikeS @ Aug 16th 2006 1:56PM
Another thing, let's not "tar and feather" Ben or Matt for their "fanboy" choice :)
We could live in a communist country like the good old USSR and see what format the Party would have chosen for us :->
Joe T @ Aug 16th 2006 2:01PM
Ben -- your "analysis" is pure rubbish.
1. Your disccussion on price includes several sweeping statements unsupported by anything except your opinion. For example, "most will see [HD-DVD] as a generic version." and "those who have the money to buy the $6000 rear projection will buy the Blu-ray." Oh really? Please share with us the factual basis for spewing this crap.
2. Your remark on Perception that "Blu-ray will be perceived as better because it costs more, we all know this." Oh really? I don't know that. What I know is that Blu-ray costs twice as much as HD-DVD, and from most accounts does not have as good PQ. Another sweeping statement full of crap.
3. On Head Start: "Sure, HD DVD has the lead now, but who really believes they can keep it never the less stop Blu-ray once all the companies pledging support actually fulfill that promise." Well, I believe it is certainly feasable that HD-DVD can retain its lead. Being first out with the (significantly) cheaper box is a potentially huge advantage that cannot be ignored. If you were building a new widget, would you prefer to be first to market or second or third? 'Nuff said.
4. On Technology: "Blu-ray might be behind HD DVD today because of their reluctance to use more advanced CODECs, but in the long run they will support all the same CODECs and the extra space and throughput is going to make the difference." OK, so Blu-ray just wanted to make things interesting at the outset by using inferior CODECs in their first machines, but they'll see the light eventually and support other CODECS down the road. Not sure whether that's arrogance or stupidity on Blu-ray's part, but in either case it's an inefficient approach to trying to win a format war. Although apparently, it's not an approach that bothers you in the slightest
Your screed was mildly entertainng, but hardly insightful. Go do some more homework, then come back and enlighten us with some real analysis.
The-Bus @ Aug 16th 2006 2:22PM
"I believe Blu-ray can and will deliver the ultimate HD picture and sound quality and don't care if HD DVD is a little better right now."
If that's not a fanboy statement, I don't know what is.
Xyzzy @ Aug 16th 2006 2:38PM
#41: EXACTLY! And while he (and others) are sitting back, waiting for Blu-ray to actually be good (since most reviews say it's currently only slightly better than DVD), I'm sitting back in my house, kicking back some beverages, watching the best picture available to the home market.
And if HD-DVD does fail, this player will still make my extensive DVD collection look better than nearly any other player out there.
Steve J @ Aug 16th 2006 2:43PM
Personally, I WANT Blu-ray to win. And this is mainly because of the potential that will come with the larger capacity disks. We'll end up with better PQ for the movie, and we'll end up with better quality (and more numerous) special features.
I know that eventually ALL the movie studios will go over to the format that eventually wins...I just think that will be Blu-ray.
Finally, on the subject of the PS3... I'll buy one mainly for the games, but it will also be my first Blu-ray player. With that in mind, I'll probably buy a couple of movies at that time just to see what it's like. I think this will be the key to how much PS3 can help the format... not the hardcore movie enthusiasts specifically buying a PS3 for the movies, but the gamer who likes movies and wants to test the water before the format war is decided.
Robert @ Aug 16th 2006 3:14PM
In reguards to the 50GB dual layer question, Sony has announced today that they are now shipping them... see this article http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/08/16/sony_50gb_blu_ray/
Xyzzy - In reguards to the "best upconverting dvd player on the market" take a look at www.oppodigital.com, both of their upconverting dvd players have scored almost perfect marks and are ~$200.
I mention this on my new blog(http://journals.aol.com/sawyeriii/robert-sawyers-thoughts/), but the PS3 (game console market) is going to be sold for less than it cast to make, which is a common business decision in that industry, but the Consumer Electronics industry has not traditionally subsidized their newest, first run products to get them out into the markets. This is exactly what Toshiba is doing with their player. Toshiba is losing ~$200 per unit for two reasons.
1. They need to increase the install base to show their affiliated movie studios that making HD-DVD's will sell to the public.
2. They want to create the impression that HD-DVD players are less expensive to make (which is what they tried to point out about the media itself about a year ago).
Lets do some math...
HD-DVD BLU-RAY
$500 (sales price) $999
$680(material cost) -->?~$800(total cost)
-$180 (profit) |___ $200(normal)
Real Cost difference between models ~$200
Dave Zatz - Because of the difference in Numerical Aperature between the two formats and their differing position in the disc substraite it is going to be very difficult to create a combo burner, (Ricoh has a lens that will do both ate the same time, but currently for reading only, the laser power loss is too excessive for writing)
KC @ Aug 16th 2006 3:19PM
As to Ben the "Blu-ray fanboy", I sometimes find that this conflicts with the authority and confidence that he has established with his fans (just read iTunes reviews and listen to the last weeks podcast).
I am fan of Ben and think he is funny as hell but when he makes statements(posts) like these it makes "me" second guess the intregrity and objectivity of someone I consider an expert in this area.
I don't know about you but "I" look to HDBeat as a site to help me make informed opinions and decisions about all things HD, the fanboy thing is entertaining for a little while but come on?!?!?!
I'll stick with you a while... just be careful, you have a lot of mature, informed and smart readers.
p.s. Ben & Co., you guys are great!
Jason @ Aug 16th 2006 3:35PM
Robert... where did you get the material cost of the HD-DVD player? Is that an firm's estimate? How much creed do you put in that? Toshiba has said that HD-DVD is priced to make a profit... just cause some financial firm guesses that the cost is a certain thing doesn't mean that it is... the same goes for Blu-Ray...
Jay C @ Aug 16th 2006 3:49PM
23. Jay C- 50gb discs are part of the Blu-ray Spec, so by definition it MUST play them.
Posted at 12:49PM on Aug 16th 2006 by TJ
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TJ, I can't download/view any of the specs from blue-ray's site to validate/refute this. So I went to Samsung's site to view the user guide. It states:
"Blu-ray Disc is a new and evolving format. Accordingly, disc compatibility issues with new and existing format discs are possible. Not all discs are compatible and not every disc will playback. For additional information, also refer to the Compliance and Compatibility Notice section of this Manual. If you encounter compatibility problems, please contact SAMSUNG customer care center. Samsung Blu-ray disc player (BD-P1000) supports only BD-ROM Profile 1 version 1.0 specification. In case of playing discs which has later version, you may need to update player's firmware. Please refer to http://www.samsung.com or contact SAMSUNG customer care center."
This supports your firmware upgrade option except on that same page in the table it only lists single layer BD discs. I'm still be suspect if a firmware upgrade would do it though. I'm just in it for the tech discussions.
Sailor Moon @ Aug 16th 2006 4:16PM
Blu-Ray, the market will punish you.
Blu-Ray is better on paper.
Yet, HD-DVD will be good enough for most people. HD-DVD has clear branding. When you say "HD-DVD", people know what you're talking about; it communicates the benefit to the consumer, not the technology inside the box.
People pick the side that's winning. Two years from now, nobody is going to care what format is better, they'll pick the format that is best supported. HD-DVD has an early lead. Unless Sony moves aggressively to close that gap in the next few months, consumers aren't going to wait.