http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/ Engadget HD Comments for How much of an impact is picture quality on the format war? http://www.engadgethd.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadgethd.com en-us Copyright 2009 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 3:46PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
The Beta comparison is good, but not perfect. The video tape era was about consumers *recording* television for the first time (most consumers had recently adopted cassette tapes to record radio for the same purpose). Logically, the consumer used the most cost-effective technology to tape record TV, which was VHS because it had the longer record time. The High Def consumer might be looking to maximize the investment in the display device.

I didn't say we needed to *use* those coffin nails yet, Ben. But it wouldn't hurt to keep a few around. There the PS3 gorilla around the corner.
]]>Aug 1st 2006 4:03PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
Picture quality, features, and resolution are just ammunition for us early adopters. The war will reach its peak when Joe Average starts to buy.]]>Aug 1st 2006 4:08PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
Consider this. For the price of just the Samsung BD player you can buy the Toshiba HD-A1 "and" 25 HD movies. THAT my friends is the bottom line right now. ]]>Aug 1st 2006 4:13PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 4:14PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 4:43PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 5:00PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
i agree, avrage joe will decide, and i think we are a few monthes away still from seeing how the major players will move joe to buy.]]>Aug 1st 2006 5:09PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 5:11PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 5:44PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 5:51PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 6:11PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 6:17PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 6:37PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 1st 2006 7:01PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
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SONY:A Proud History of Poorly Adopted and Supported Formats.

UMD Movies/Games
DAT
Mini Disc
Beta Videotape
DiscMan Books
Memory Stick Duo/Pro
Magic Cap PDA's

]]>Aug 2nd 2006 4:34AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
The question for me is not will Blu-ray be the mass market winner but will Blu-ray have a large enough following amongst videophiles to keep production going.

This Blu-ray supporter is crossing his fingers studio support and price breaks make Blu-ray the winner.]]>Aug 2nd 2006 7:27AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
HD DVD is cheaper and has more titles. People might pay more for a player with a better picture, but they aren't going to pay more for a player with a worse picture.

Game over.]]>Aug 2nd 2006 7:42AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
However, HD-DVD is $500 cheaper. $500 is a lot of money to most people.

]]>Aug 2nd 2006 9:30AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
Ahhh...the logic of the HD-DVD fanboy ;)

Seriously Paul, don't you think it's a little premature to be saying such strong statements? Afterall, the "game" has only just begun.

All I say is, wait until 2nd gen hardware comes out, wait to see what effect dual-layer has on Blu-ray PQ, wait to see what effect PS3 has on blu-ray sales and wait until the prices of both format's machines comes within reach of the average consumer.

There's really no point in declaring the game won by HD-DVD just yet. If indeed HD-DVD does win, fine.... but I for one hope that Blu-ray puts up a good fight...afterall, surely that will only serve to strengthen the victor's format? Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.]]>Aug 2nd 2006 10:04AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
Right now, everyone who owns either HD-DVD OR Blu-ray are hardcore, early adopters. To add to that, most of them have choosen their side in the battle. These people represent about 1% (or less) of the potential market.

When HD home players get to a point in both market penetration AND price that the average consumer is ready to buy them, picture quality is going to be a MAJOR consideration right along with price and movie selection. The fact that it is now readily accepted that HD-DVD looks better AND is cheaper, is going to be the primary factor that most average consumers will take it over Blu-ray.

I consider myself a hybrid. I'm a hardcore gadget guy. But I refuse to buy either player until there is a HUGE selection of movies available AND I can get a player for $299. But I also see things from the perspective of average consumers. If blu-ray is already getting trumped in both price and performance, things will have to change drastically for the average consumer to be swayed.

]]>Aug 2nd 2006 10:15AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
HD-DVD/BD might sound great, but it's a lot to ask of this "average consumer" we like to talk about to buy an HDTV, upgrade his/her cable/satellite service, (realize how little programming is in HD), and believe that DVDs don't look good enough and need to be replaced by an HD player and new (expensive discs).

I don't have a more-educated guess about how the PS3 will perform in sales, or when/how Microsoft will release an HD-DVD drive to the XBox 360, but it sure will make this space more interesting.]]>Aug 2nd 2006 11:04AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
* Its not picture quality? (as stated in your article).

* It's not player quality? Both appear to be "fair" for 1st gens. Plus in the end all the manufactures will make a player in the winning format.

* Its CAN'T be price? $500 vs $1,000... duh!?!?!?!

* Maybe movies? Sure the studio support is in favor of Blu-ray right now but they will eventually go to the winner (even Sony) in the end anyways... (same as the player manufactures)

Maybe for you it will be decided when dual layer BR comes out... and THEN QUALITY WILL MATTER?

Maybe you like the color Blue over Red... I guess I can buy that... Blue is my favorite color.

Oh wait, maybe its Sony... sure... those poor guys really need our help

Wait, I have an idea... Instead of buying a BR player, why don't you buy an HD player and then write a check to Sony for $400. Everybody wins.

p.s. You save $100... if you didnt catch that.
]]>Aug 2nd 2006 12:39PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/There are a few reasons.
1. I think they will win because of the industry/studio support. Why would I spend $1 on a format that I don't believe has a future?

2. Movie selection, more studios should equal more movies.

3. My favorite brands back Blu-ray; Mitsubishi and Pioneer.

4. More capicity (eventually) should mean more options which could lead to better PQ or more features.

I am thinking long term here.

Ben]]>Aug 2nd 2006 1:46PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 2nd 2006 5:13PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
To your points... not in order.

Brand loyalty is certainly one that I will not debate, this is a matter of personal preference. This aside...

Regarding BR capacity, one may agrue that the introduction of dual Layer will provide the appropriate capacity for MPEG-2 to allow for higher picture quality BUT to your own point... the difference in picture quality will not be noticed by MOST consumers.

So, this leaves "options" as you stated. The question is what options and how much storage is needed for these options. MPEG4 & VC-1 codec uses roughly 4 GB per hour of HD; so a 2 hour movie equals 8 GB, you add audio, interface and other content... maybe 12 GB total perhaps. That leaves a lot of room on a dual layer HD-DVD for options as well.

Now for points 1 & 2, which are similiar. Blu-Ray has movie selectionstudio support, I agree... but lets talk long term right, thats what you said. All the studios will eventually release titles to the winning (and probably the only) format. If HD-DVD stays out front, the studios will eventually come!!!

So if you really think about it, the only real (and current) advantage for Blu-Ray is movie selection and if and when that goes... whats left for Blu-Ray.

I think you are taking a greater risk with Blu-Ray in spending a $1,000 on a format that "may not" have a future?

BTW, have a theory on why there may be no 2nd gen Toshiba players for the end of this year. If interested let me know... thanks again for responding.]]>Aug 2nd 2006 6:12PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
I mean those people that are not reading every shred of article that has the word HD in it and therefore have no clue on what is what and buy whatever seems better at first sight.

And at first sight, HD DVD seams to be what they want... high def.
Meanwhile, Blu Ray seems just to be... what, the new weird guy in the neighbourhood?

And yes, it does seem to be VHS vs. Beta-Max again...
Video Home System vs. unfinished Max... Maximilianus Boutoulakis, from Greece... some new vitamin someone came up with?

Oh, yes.. and HD DVD just sounds sexy and masculine.

I still think blu ray will be around for another 5 years or so... until PS4, that is.]]>Aug 2nd 2006 6:18PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
Yes, that's it. They're holding back. No offense man, but come on have a bit more common sense than that. Sony isn't holding back, they're simply not ready. Why would they hold back when it benefits them most to "bury", as you say, HD-DVD as soon as possible. The more you let the underdog hang around, the more likely the upset is. A perfect example of this:

"4. Consider this. For the price of just the Samsung BD player you can buy the Toshiba HD-A1 "and" 25 HD movies. THAT my friends is the bottom line right now."

That's a pretty compelling argument and one that _shouldn't_ be brushed aside. It's about value right now and if BD doesn't show it what's the point? This isn't like when DVD debuted where there was nothing like it before. Movies on disc isn't the magical wonderland it once was and promoting storage space and how many people follow you isn't the most effective way to get your message across. The PS3 will be a test for the BD camp but do you honestly think a videogame machine will be the savior of a whole format? Come on...]]>Aug 2nd 2006 6:33PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
If HD DVD stays out in front and the studios switch sides than I will have to switch too. I am betting that will not be the case.

Yes I am interested in hearing your theory.

Ben]]>Aug 2nd 2006 7:45PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 2nd 2006 8:22PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
I don't believe there will be much of argument on who can achieve the best picture quality...

The argument will come down to the actual format of the player and who can get their HD player the cheapest and some point one player will concede and allow for a dual format players.]]>Aug 3rd 2006 12:17AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
Back to this discussion, there is the battle(s) and the war...

Battles:
1. Speed to market [HD-DVD]

2. Early adopters [HD-DVD?]
*Don't know who has sold more units, I think HD

3. StudioManufacturer support [Blu-Ray]

4. Price [HD-DVD]

5. Videophilesconsumer confidence [HD-DVD]
*Better picture quality plus delay in Sony BR player

6. Console War [HD-DVD????]
*2 million PS3s against 5-8 million 360s
*Predict $249 XBOX add-on; $600 bundle

7. "Electronic" consumers [HD-DVD]
*These are consumers like myself, knowledgable about gadgets, uses the web for research, experienced in HD, has or is buying an HD TV BUT either "will not" or "can not" send $500+ on a player.
*These are consumers who KNOW the price will drop and are willing to wait... "sweet spot" = $350... if anyone is going hit this first (after the holidays0 it will be HD-DVD

8. XMAS [Tie]
*Who knows, this is open season
*Could WIN the WAR

9. "Average" consumer [???]
*Sweet spot = sub $250
*WAR could be over by now but this could be the last desperate effort on the losing side to WIN it all, and you know what it may work.

10. COST [HD-DVD]
*This is IT, whomever can product BOTH players and media at the lowest cost wins the prize... yes the above plays into this one... more sales, more production, lower costs... but this is bottom line and wins the WAR
*Why HD-DVD? Because I think Sony has put all of its eggs in one basket and may have taken on more then they can handle. Yes BR doesnt just mean Sony but with the PS3 and Sony being the main backer... if Sony goes down so does BR. Just don't think they can sustain additional huge losses for long.

BTW... not saying Sony will go out of business.. not a chance.

11. Dual Format Players [Blu-Ray]
This could be Blu-Rays Ace if they play their cards right but I'll save this one for later.

War: ???????????

All that work for nothing... still can't figure it out. My gut says Blu-ray but the 'current' logical winner should be HD. ]]>Aug 3rd 2006 11:53AMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/Aug 6th 2006 3:06PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/#comments


To Ben (BD-ROM supporter) and Matt (Evil Microsoft supporter! DIE!)...

Nitroflames said it best. PQ will become less and less a factor as 1080p becomes more and more fine tuned for the average Joe. Even the aficionado will have a harder time noticing the difference. No one owns "great high-def PQ" any more than anyone owns "great sound." There are more than one way to skin a cat. Codecs, hardware, software and marketing will all be factors. And time will not stand still for anyone. Anyone want to put my 2007 Blu-ray player against their Toshiba 2006 model? Get my point? Progress stops for no one!

HDTV type, HDMI spec (1.3, 1.4) and on-board decoders on-board software improvements, content Interface...etc...All of these are factors that will improve and become a standard technologies just like DACs have become for CD players. Except it's the technical science of High-Def. So, what we will be seeing for the years to come is: Fine-tune, fine-tune, fine-tune. And better believe it that Sony, Pioneer, Samsung, Apple, Dell will be pushing these improvements for BD-ROM. Not to mention, BD-R, BD-RE.

Currently the price is high for R&D cost, yes. But BD-ROM quality WILL IMPROVE. The hd-dvd fan boys are acting like time will stand still for them (PQ is better *now* for us, blah, blah). It will NOT forever. Sony/Samsung/Pioneer and others will put out Blu-ray players that get better and better. And at some point PQ will look soooooo damn good that it will be almost impossible to notice with the naked eye. It will just be AWESOME. Then, we can bicker about tiny, tiny details. But that will be for the videophile. And not the average Joe. To them it will just look incredible and negligible.

Toshiba (Microsoft) hopes to squash out Blu-ray in a few months? Get real!

By the way, the beta examples are bad. Please...enough w/that crap. Sony is not putting out a proprietary format that they control like they did w/Beta. They are allowing other companies to use BD-ROM and are planing for more disc space that beta would not provide (VHS did). How ironic is it that many of the VHS supporter and DVD player manufactures ARE supporting Blu-ray. These are all reason that BD-ROM is NOT like beta.

Half the hd-dvd supporters will change horses as things improve for BD-ROM. All they care about is PQ (and price to some extent). But just wait until Blu-ray puts out better and better transfers, takes advantage of the 1.3 HDMI specs and improves their software/hardware decoders. What? Do think the bandwagoners will just stay put? Ha!

GL -]]>Aug 7th 2006 11:49PMhttp://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/01/how-much-of-an-impact-is-picture-quality-on-the-format-war/
Sony would rather commit hari-kari in the marketplace than pay Microsoft royalties.]]>Aug 31st 2006 5:51AM